Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity

[Archon_Wing]

[ QUOTE ]
Wikipedia tells us that "hell" is described by all these religions:

2 Religious literature & views
2.1 Bahá'í Faith
2.2 Buddhism
2.3 Chinese religions
2.4 Christianity
2.5 Deism
2.6 Greek Mythology
2.7 Hinduism
2.8 Islam
2.9 Japanese religions
2.10 Judaism
2.11 Maya faith
2.12 Norse Mythology
2.13 Taoism
2.14 Unification Church
2.15 Zoroastrianism

So even if you could force yourself to believe in this Jesus character, you'd still be 14:1 against avoiding hell, on the unlikely (silly!) assumption that these are the only options.


[/ QUOTE ]

vnh sir! And to think of all the sects within them too. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[Archon_Wing]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The whole argument on both sides is missing a chord, IMHO. The truth of the matter, IMO, is that it is impossible to get to the truth on either side because of an ongoing bias on both sides throughout history.

Scientific evidence, historical evidence, and theological beliefs are all subject to a much greater degree of bias and error than anyone would care to admit. The truth is further obscured in semantics, legalism, and debate.

If you are going to base your beliefs on something besides faith (and that's fine if you decide to do it), you should exhaust every resource until you are able to verify its truth.

Atheism is a every bit a religious belief as is Christianity because it lacks any proof or evidence.

[/ QUOTE ]

When in doubt, call atheism a religion! And then, no matter what we say, you can just refuse to acknowledge our definitions and go on pretending you have any clue what you are talking about! I should point out you forget to use the words "dogma" or "fundamentalist," still time to edit maybe?

Tell me what about the lack of belief in God is like a religion. Please?

If it makes you feel better, theism isn't a religion either.

Vhawk's Big Board of Things That Aren't Religions:
Atheism
Theism
Bananas
More?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, atheism is a religion! Let's talk about not believing in God! And while we're at it, I would like to talk about my other hobbies, not skydiving and not rock climbing. I'm sure I'll have a nice time talking about not doing those things. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Splendour]

"That's the reason it feels like you are being held to a higher standard than others - because you are making a claim. The atheists are not making any claim about the world, they are saying they dont believe what some other people say."

Hi Bunny...thanks for this clarification...I just seem to get a flurry of questions even when the OP isn't even mine...I never thought about it like you explained it...

On your hell question...I actually don't have a full answer at this time...Probably because I never have never worried much about going to hell...I always felt God was good even before becoming a Christian...I never felt like I had to put the screws to him to explain everything...I read the Bible and most of it makes sense...There are some areas like biblical history and a few really weird Old Testament bible stories (that it takes a biblical scholar to understand and interpret) that are hard to understand...the history of the bible and the identity of the old countries in the bible and a lot of hidden bible symbology (I believe Revelations is in some kind of Hebrew code to protect it from the Romans...John was in a Roman prison in Patmos and it wasn't an easy prison for him there either)...that is hard to understand...It takes patience and perserverance to read the Bible...most people won't do it...they always take the shortcut...I think if they took the long road it would make all the difference, but when its a spiritual journey everyone seems to look for the shortcut...Maybe that's why there are so many stories and parables...for all the people trying to take shortcuts or maybe just because in the early days of Christianity almost nobody could read, but they could recite stories...

[Archon_Wing]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You should be terrified of hell. It is a real place & people will go there someday.

[/ QUOTE ]

lololol


Ok, let's do this:


Sir,

Q1. What is hell. Please define what it is and how it works.

Q2. How do you know?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, he's right! It is a place and people will go there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell%2C_Michigan

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wikipedia tells us that "hell" is described by all these religions:

2 Religious literature & views
2.1 Bahá'í Faith
2.2 Buddhism
2.3 Chinese religions
2.4 Christianity
2.5 Deism
2.6 Greek Mythology
2.7 Hinduism
2.8 Islam
2.9 Japanese religions
2.10 Judaism
2.11 Maya faith
2.12 Norse Mythology
2.13 Taoism
2.14 Unification Church
2.15 Zoroastrianism

So even if you could force yourself to believe in this Jesus character, you'd still be 14:1 against avoiding hell, on the unlikely (silly!) assumption that these are the only options.


[/ QUOTE ]

vnh sir! And to think of all the sects within them too. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

As I already pointed out, most of the religions on this list don't subscribe to a notion of hell that we would be at all familiar with. Most of them describe an afterlife of some sort however.

[ChrisV]

I have also been there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Norway

[Archon_Wing]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wikipedia tells us that "hell" is described by all these religions:

2 Religious literature & views
2.1 Bahá'í Faith
2.2 Buddhism
2.3 Chinese religions
2.4 Christianity
2.5 Deism
2.6 Greek Mythology
2.7 Hinduism
2.8 Islam
2.9 Japanese religions
2.10 Judaism
2.11 Maya faith
2.12 Norse Mythology
2.13 Taoism
2.14 Unification Church
2.15 Zoroastrianism

So even if you could force yourself to believe in this Jesus character, you'd still be 14:1 against avoiding hell, on the unlikely (silly!) assumption that these are the only options.


[/ QUOTE ]

vnh sir! And to think of all the sects within them too. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

As I already pointed out, most of the religions on this list don't subscribe to a notion of hell that we would be at all familiar with. Most of them describe an afterlife of some sort however.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is true, but wouldn't you agree that with the potential of so many afterlifes that just focusing on one possibility might not be that productive?

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I believe in god but not in hell

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate? Q3 & Q4

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont know if it's useful, I've been down this road with you before - it seems to involve lots of unrelated questions with the odd 'that is not a knowledge statement' thrown in. I dont understand the way you use words, so am not confident we're going to have much of a fruitful discussion. Nonetheless...

[ QUOTE ]
Q3. What is a 'god'? Please define what it is and how it works.

[/ QUOTE ]
By God I mean the intelligent creator of the universe with no physical or temporal existence, able to do everything it is possible to do and able to know everything it is possible to know.

[ QUOTE ]
Q4. How do you know?

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont claim knowledge of god - I have a belief (which I dont regard as a choice but rather a discovery about myself). The only evidence for that belief is a subjective experience which seems to me to be communing or sharing a moment with someone else - the obvious physicalist explanations dont seem "right" to me, but I accept a high probability that I am wrong.

You didnt ask, but the choice of which religion I follow is largely irrational - something I reluctantly accept as a necessary evil.

[Mempho]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You might as well say that a Christian's lack of belief in Thor is just as much a religion as his Christianity. No it's not.

[/ QUOTE ]

To the extent that Christians devote hours of their lives debunking Thor-worship on internet message boards, your analogy holds.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is something that I've never understood.

Besides the "atheistic pulpit", my comment about atheism being a religion was a direct reference to atheism being something that comes about by faith.

The atheists still "believe" in something, even if it's only science. Considering some of the political views of some of the resident conspiracy theorists on this board, I find such faith surprising.

[Brad1970]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've just started college, an obvious major turning point in my life, and have spent some time evaluating my personal beliefs. I was raised in Christan home, but had my fights with religion from youth through today. I always felt as if something was being imposed on me, and am uneasy in churches or religious areas/gatherings in general. During highschool I read a lot of Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, and Burtrand Russell, and agreed with the vast majority of things they had to say. I've spent a great many years as a "true" agnostic, rather than using it as a stepping stone from theism to atheism.

However, I've lately been extremely concerned about the existence of Hell and the implications of my agnosticism after my death, should I end up wrong. I've actually tired to believe in Christianity/Jesus, but my prior knowledge and opposing viewpoints shoot doubt through the entirety of the religion.

I'm actually having a fairly difficult time articulating the deeper sentiments here, so I'll get to the point. I'm terrified of hell, but would likely never have any level of faith that would be required to avoid it due to my many years as an agnostic. Is this situation common?

[/ QUOTE ]
My views are not very widely held, especially in america, but it may mean something to you. I believe in god but not in hell - it doesnt make sense to me that a benevolent god would create hell. When christians tell me there is a hell and atheists are going there, I ask them if they think God is going to lovingly torture you forever because you are unwilling to pretend to believe in him.

I havent heard any good answers (I'd be curious if Brad1970, Peter666 or Splendour or others have any response...?)

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, the definition of christianity doesn't change regardless if you are in America, Australia, or Africa....it's still the same Bunny.

We have been down this road before. You know my thoughts on this subject. I quoted you alot of scripture relating to hell & how people will be going there someday the last time this came up. As usual, you shrugged me off with a "nah, I like my theory better" attitude.