Purposely scratching in 8-ball? - Page 7

Lottery Larry · #61 08-27-2007, 11:02 PM

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I believe it's because they're casual players.

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most people who have even occasionally played pool at bars have been exposed to the real rules at some point, because even if only 10% of people regularly played with real rules, most everyone would have seen them somewhere at some point.

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And yet, here's an example of one who wasn't exposed to all of the standard "better" rules.... until now.

Lottery Larry · #62 08-27-2007, 11:05 PM

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What happened was this: I had 2-3 balls left with no shot. My opponent had just the 8-ball left, but it was close to the rail on the other side of the table. Well within the mark where you cannot pass for ball in hand. So essentially, his only shot was shoot across the table (longways), hit one or more rails and pocket the 8-ball.

Now I've always played where you can purposely scratch... it's a defense move. Especially if you have no shot or an impossible shot leaving you in a bad position. He said it was illegal. Based on the additional information, what is your ruling? Legal or illegal?

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Hard to answer, since you're not playing ball in hand.

My wife (from a pool family) and I were trying to imagine a situation where you didn't have a safety that allowed you to put the white ball on the far end of the table WITHOUT scratching.

Was the cue ball on the same end of the table as the 8 and you were worried that you couldn't finesse it to the end of the table, while making your safety?

Iplayragstoo · #63 08-27-2007, 11:09 PM

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A lot of people play that scratching on the 8-ball is loss, however, under the world standardized 8-ball rules, you only lose if you pocket the 8-ball and foul the shot.

So, if you just scratch when you're down to the 8-ball, it is just a normal foul and your opponent gets to take the cue ball in hand. If you scratch AND pocket the 8-ball, you lose.

SpaceAce

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One minor point to clear up- "ball in hand" doesn't mean the same thing in 8-ball as it does in 9-ball.

Thanks for this post- you made me look it up and find out a BUNCH of rules I wasn't aware of.

World Standardized rules of pool

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Um, wrong, they are the same thing...ball in hand is ball in hand.

Iplayragstoo · #64 08-27-2007, 11:13 PM

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You play by the bar rules or don't play.

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Ok, what are bar rules? Can you provide documentation for these rules? I know this term is used as a kind of default answer, but can you actually show me a list of bar rules? Does this apply to all bars, or can it change from bar to bar? Get my point yet...the term bar rules means somethign more along the lines of "whatever we decide to play". If you wish to refer to the real rules of pool in general you can find them here.

BCA Standardized Rules

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Bar rules vary from bar to bar. They often aren't written down, but the regulars know them well. Have fun whipping out "BCA standard rules" against a regular. If you're just playing your buddy and no one is waiting obviously you can do whatever you want.

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I have done this several times when someone did somethign completely strange and against the rules. I called them out on t, and they said prove it. I carry a BCA rule book in my case, we get them at the start of every league year when we pay our dues. If I have my case in the car, then I will get it. This has shut them up several times. If they pushed the issue, then I will abide by the rules they say we are playing under UNTILL I beat them, then its my table, and my rules.

Iplayragstoo · #65 08-27-2007, 11:16 PM

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This is why I always ask if were playing ball in hand or the 'kitchen' line or whatever. My friends and I never play seriously and never play ball in hand, however, I play with some other people that play league and they play ball in hand. Its just best to know what rules you're playing before hand, never hurts to ask.

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100% correct.

Iplayragstoo · #66 08-27-2007, 11:17 PM

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I believe it's because they're casual players.

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most people who have even occasionally played pool at bars have been exposed to the real rules at some point, because even if only 10% of people regularly played with real rules, most everyone would have seen them somewhere at some point.

my point is only that to even casual players it would be obvious that official rules are objectively better rules, which is why i'm at least moderately surprised (maybe disappointed is the right word) that more people don't start using them as soon as they are exposed to them the first time.

it's not like standard bar rules are better for the casual player.

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I agree...

Iplayragstoo · #67 08-27-2007, 11:18 PM

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Bar rules vary from bar to bar. They often aren't written down, but the regulars know them well.

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God forbid having a written down standarized set of rules for a game, rather than some mystical "bar rules" that not everyone knows, changes at will, and very few people can logically explain. Can anyone give a good reason for this other than wanting to start fights with strangers over unknown technicalities?

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Bingo! [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Iplayragstoo · #68 08-27-2007, 11:29 PM

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In WV, we played that no matter what balls or how many you sank, it was still open until you complete after the break. So if you sink three solids on the break, it's still open. If you miss a follow-up shot, your opponent could steal your solids. It's a terrible rule.

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this is actually standard at most bars, and is in fact the official rule. why is you think it's so terrible? the point of the rule is to reduce the advantage that comes with getting the break. i think most would agree that ideally it should be as close to nothing as possible. the alternative is that when you break and successfully pocket balls, not only is it your turn first, but you automatically get the color with fewer balls left. that seems like it would be a much worse outcome, no?

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I have played all over the country, and in many, many, many bars, and this is NOT the normal rule. I wish it was. Its better for the better player.But you are 100% wrong about it reducing the advantage for the breaker. It GREATLY increases the advatage. Lets say you break, and make 3 solids. You know look around and see that from where the cue ball lyes you have no shot at any solid, but could easly run the stripes out. Whats the disadvantage? Some people think because they win a game, and leave thier opponant with all 7 of thier object balls its better then leaving them with 1 or no object balls left. It doesnt matter, a win is a win. So there is no advantage to making balls on the break and not being able to get out. Its actually a disadvantage. If i am playing you, and I offer to spot you any 3 of your object balls to get dropped after the break with the stipulation that I get to choose the balls, and I get the breaks, you will lose ALOT of games without ever getting to the table. Think about it, you will see why. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Quadstriker · #69 08-28-2007, 12:55 AM

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In WV, we played that no matter what balls or how many you sank, it was still open until you complete after the break. So if you sink three solids on the break, it's still open. If you miss a follow-up shot, your opponent could steal your solids. It's a terrible rule.

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You're leveling right?

otnemem · #70 08-28-2007, 06:20 AM

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In WV, we played that no matter what balls or how many you sank, it was still open until you complete after the break. So if you sink three solids on the break, it's still open. If you miss a follow-up shot, your opponent could steal your solids. It's a terrible rule.

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You're leveling right?

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In that I think it's a terrible rule? I play APA rules, so no.