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#61
03-08-2007, 03:02 PM
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Re: Copyrights and patents
[ QUOTE ]
Regardless of whether or not ideas can be considered scarce. This is still simple contract law. In any market system you would like to operate in other than pure chaos contracts should and will exist. Your not advocating a world without contracts are you? And when you purchase music or art you are entering a defacto contract. I provide you with my IP (music) for a price. As the seller I define the limits of that contract and you can either accept or refuse it. If I want to sell a record for $500 or throw them from the back of speeding truck in bundles of 1000 that's my business. If you copy and distribute that music then you are violating our contract and harming me. [/ QUOTE ] This is why some in this thread have already acknowledged that copyright can be voluntary and workable, but patents cannot. You can only copy Shakespeare if you buy it first, and he can refuse to sell it to you unless you agree not to copy it. That's fine and dandy. But you can copy a light bulb if you just see one, or hear about it, and figure out how it works. Also you may come up with it on your own independently, unaware that there is a patent filed for it somewhere. In these cases the lightbulb inventor does not have any claim against you imo. Sure he could be like Shakespeare and make his customers agree to his copyright, but this is more workable for records, movies, etc. than it is for drugs and technology. 
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#63
03-08-2007, 03:28 PM
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Re: Copyrights and patents
[ QUOTE ]
You are mistaking scarcity for ease of duplication IMO. [/ QUOTE ] Actually, you're falsely differentitating between the two. If something is easily duplicatable it cannot be scarce. [ QUOTE ] It is easier to go over to your neighbors house and burn a copy of a CD or scan a photo than it is to duplicate his car or the computer you use to do the duplication. [/ QUOTE ] That's because bits on a CD are not scarce. Interestingly, the blank CD itself IS scarce. [ QUOTE ] Simply because you can upropriate something with relative ease doesn't mean that you aren't stealing or that the original owners aren't harmed. You are basically arguing for imminent domain over items that can be stolen by the general public. [/ QUOTE ] Iminent domain? Are you serious? I'm not giving the duplicator exclusive rights to the duplicated information. You are begging the question; you assume that information can be owned instead of showing *why* this is the case. [ QUOTE ] Lets use the music idea to try and keep this relatively on topic. Say that I am a hiphop producer my job is to wright beats and tunes and then shop them around to artists who will then buy the usage of those songs from me and put their lyrics on them. I shop the songs around to allot of groups and eventually Ludacris likes the tune and wants to record with it. We wright up a contract for usage of my idea together with his idea agree on a price and a use and hes off to the studio. Now the song is about to be released on national radio when along comes a tune from Lil John using my exact tune copied from the demo tape. Now Luda can't release the tune because it sounds like a rip off when in fact he was ripped off. And I'm screwed because my deal was to make money off the album sales. [/ QUOTE ] Bummer. Let's say I have this idea to take thin pieces of bread, roll them up, and stick ice cream in one end of them. I call it an "ice cream cone". I start collecting some money and materials to build my ice cream cone stand, and right across the street someone else opens a "Ice Cream Conicals." Now I can't open my store because it looks like a rip off. And I'm screwed because my deal was to make money off of the ice cream cone sales. Boo hoo. [ QUOTE ] Regardless of whether or not ideas can be considered scarce. This is still simple contract law. In any market system you would like to operate in other than pure chaos contracts should and will exist. Your not advocating a world without contracts are you? [/ QUOTE ] What gave you that idea? [ QUOTE ] And when you purchase music or art you are entering a defacto contract. I provide you with my IP (music) for a price. As the seller I define the limits of that contract and you can either accept or refuse it. [/ QUOTE ] Sounds perfectly good to me. [ QUOTE ] If I want to sell a record for $500 or throw them from the back of speeding truck in bundles of 1000 that's my business. If you copy and distribute that music then you are violating our contract and harming me. [/ QUOTE ] I have no objection to this. So why didn't you use that contract in your demo tape example?
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#65
03-08-2007, 03:30 PM
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Re: Copyrights and patents
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] You keep saying this, but you haven't demonstrated it. Please give us an example of a scarce idea. [/ QUOTE ] I thought that I had, but since I don't type well and I suppose often don't explain myself well, I will try again. Firstly it is a given that in specific cases IP can be misused or abused (usually by people who shouldn't be involved) due to certain market conditions (the guvment). You are mistaking scarcity for ease of duplication IMO. It is easier to go over to your neighbors house and burn a copy of a CD or scan a photo than it is to duplicate his car or the computer you use to do the duplication. Simply because you can upropriate something with relative ease doesn't mean that you aren't stealing or that the original owners aren't harmed. You are basically arguing for imminent domain over items that can be stolen by the general public. Lets use the music idea to try and keep this relatively on topic. Say that I am a hiphop producer my job is to wright beats and tunes and then shop them around to artists who will then buy the usage of those songs from me and put their lyrics on them. I shop the songs around to allot of groups and eventually Ludacris likes the tune and wants to record with it. We wright up a contract for usage of my idea together with his idea agree on a price and a use and hes off to the studio. Now the song is about to be released on national radio when along comes a tune from Lil John using my exact tune copied from the demo tape. Now Luda can't release the tune because it sounds like a rip off when in fact he was ripped off. And I'm screwed because my deal was to make money off the album sales. Regardless of whether or not ideas can be considered scarce. This is still simple contract law. In any market system you would like to operate in other than pure chaos contracts should and will exist. Your not advocating a world without contracts are you? And when you purchase music or art you are entering a defacto contract. I provide you with my IP (music) for a price. As the seller I define the limits of that contract and you can either accept or refuse it. If I want to sell a record for $500 or throw them from the back of speeding truck in bundles of 1000 that's my business. If you copy and distribute that music then you are violating our contract and harming me. [/ QUOTE ] PS: where's the scarce idea here?
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#66
03-08-2007, 03:50 PM
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Re: Copyrights and patents
[ QUOTE ]
If the ideas aren't scarce, is the time and resources devoted to creating, recording and reproducing them scarce? [/ QUOTE ] Without a doubt yes. It is also this combination of time and resources along with creativity and ingenuity that create such scarce ideas as. .jpg)   And also why simple copyright is the most logical and fair way of protecting this work with a defacto contract. Stealing someones time, resources, creativity and ingenuity is still theft even if its only copying a CD that you didn't buy.
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#67
03-08-2007, 03:52 PM
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Re: Copyrights and patents
[ QUOTE ]
I have no objection to this. So why didn't you use that contract in your demo tape example? [/ QUOTE ] All artists use this contract all the time even without knowing they are doing it its called copyright.
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#68
03-08-2007, 04:03 PM
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Re: Copyrights and patents
[ QUOTE ]
I call it an "ice cream cone". I start collecting some money and materials to build my ice cream cone stand, and right across the street someone else opens a "Ice Cream Conicals." Now I can't open my store because it looks like a rip off. And I'm screwed because my deal was to make money off of the ice cream cone sales [/ QUOTE ] "Ice Cream Conicals." from a different source is not the the same as your "ice cream cone" from your stand. If i come and take your "ice cream cone" and then sell it as my own thats theft right? I beleive your are confusing patent with copyright. A crappy song is not a scarce concept but "OOPS I did it again" by Britany Spears IS (thankfully) a scarce idea. You can make all the crappy bublegum songs you want but you cannot steal from Briteny and sell her songs.
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#69
03-08-2007, 04:06 PM
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Re: Copyrights and patents
[ QUOTE ]
You are mistaking scarcity for ease of duplication IMO. [/ QUOTE ] I'm absolutely not doing this. You are confused about what the economic definition of scarcity is. [ QUOTE ] In economics, scarcity is defined as a condition of limited resources, where society does not have sufficient resources to produce enough to fulfill subjective wants. [/ QUOTE ] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarcity There is no limit to how many people can have an idea and so ideas cannot, by definition, be scarce. [ QUOTE ] You are basically arguing for imminent domain over items that can be stolen by the general public. [/ QUOTE ] No, I'm arguing for why you are wrong about the concept of scarcity. Nice strawman anyways... [ QUOTE ] Lets use the music idea to try and keep this relatively on topic. Say that I am a hiphop producer my job is to wright beats and tunes and then shop them around to artists who will then buy the usage of those songs from me and put their lyrics on them. I shop the songs around to allot of groups and eventually Ludacris likes the tune and wants to record with it. We wright up a contract for usage of my idea together with his idea agree on a price and a use and hes off to the studio. Now the song is about to be released on national radio when along comes a tune from Lil John using my exact tune copied from the demo tape. Now Luda can't release the tune because it sounds like a rip off when in fact he was ripped off. And I'm screwed because my deal was to make money off the album sales. [/ QUOTE ] As if the hip hop industry really had qualms about ripping other people off. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] Maybe you should have written a contract with everyone you showed the tape to not to copy it. This is a problem with your contract-writing skills, not with the concept of IP or scarcity. [ QUOTE ] Regardless of whether or not ideas can be considered scarce. This is still simple contract law. In any market system you would like to operate in other than pure chaos contracts should and will exist. Your not advocating a world without contracts are you? [/ QUOTE ] Of course not. Contracts are fine and dandy with me. [ QUOTE ] And when you purchase music or art you are entering a defacto contract. I provide you with my IP (music) for a price. As the seller I define the limits of that contract and you can either accept or refuse it. If I want to sell a record for $500 or throw them from the back of speeding truck in bundles of 1000 that's my business. If you copy and distribute that music then you are violating our contract and harming me. [/ QUOTE ] If we have a contract, then yes I'm in the wrong. Copyrights can probably work in a free society with contracts. Patents are a different matter.
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