Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown hand?

[PokerFink]

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Why do you only use IWTSTH if you suspect collusion?

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Because the rule is specifically designed to prevent collusion and do nothing else. Invoking the rule to gather information is abusing the rule. And it's considered bad form to abuse a rule - any rule - whether it's a poker rule or a rule in any other phase of life.

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Why shouldn't you be allowed to see the hand of an opponent at SHOWDOWN.

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Why isn't there a hole in the table for us to place our "hole cards?" It's just meaningless terminology.

[PokerFink]

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Do you guys think it is bad etiquette to make your opponent show first if you called his all in bet with the nuts?

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Yes. That's slowrolling, which is a far greater breach of etiquette than IWTSTH.

[AKQJ10]

No, I don't think that's slowrolling as I understand it to be commonly defined. Slowrolling would be failing to show one's hand promptly in turn, right?

If the action goes:

Villain bet all-in
Hero call with nuts

now it's V's turn to show. For H to show prematurely would give V a chance to muck his hand with knowledge V wasn't entitled to (yet), right?

Mind you, i wouldn't make a big deal about it -- if you have the nuts and just doubled through, it looks sort of silly to quibble about showing hands. Just stack your chips and keep the game friendly; it's probably +EV.

[mikech]

calling with the nuts and still making your opponent show his hand first is a huge douche move.

[PantsOnFire]

"Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown hand?"

Asking to see any hand that does not need to be shown goes against the very nature of poker. It's really that simple.

I agree fully with Tommy Angelo that this rule should be stricken.

[Lestat]

There are 4 reasons:

1. It slows down the game.

2. This is probably the most abused rule in poker. The original intent of this rule was put in place to prevent collusion. Unless you suspect collusion, it is poor etiquette to ask.

3. Howard Beale is correct when he says it can only be bad for the game. Poor players who know they're likely to be shown up, will all of a sudden start playing better.

4. One skill an expert has over others is his ability to read hands. When some donkey asks to see another player's hand, he is giving information to the whole table that previously only those who knew how to read hands were privvy to. This costs the better players and is why you almost never see one ask to see a hand.

[PokerFink]

AKQJ10,

Player A: *bets all-in on river*
Player B: *calls*
A: What you got?
B: I called you.
A: What you got?
B: I called you man, flip your cards.
A: Um.
-Pause-
A: *flips over his top pair*
B: Oh, that's nice, I have the nuts.

It might not be the true definition of slowrolling, but it's still extremely lame.

[AKQJ10]

I agree it's lame. I'd probably wait a second (like, almost literally, just a brief pause) since it is his turn to show, and just table my hand.

Just for discussion, is it lame to call with something like this (real hand, Borgata $1-2 last week):

8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

On a A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] - J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] - 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] board, then ask him to show? (I did, saying, "I called you.") I thought KQ was a possibility so I don't think I was being a jerk, but say something if I was.

What about some second-nuts situation where the nuts is improbable, like the ace-high flush on a broken straight flush board? For that matter, I suppose the bottom end of the straight flush would be practically the nuts for our purposes. I'd probably say, "You don't have the big straight flush do you?" and then table my hand without waiting for a response.

[PokerFink]

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I'd probably say, "You don't have the big straight flush do you?" and then table my hand without waiting for a response.

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That's basically what I do when I call with a near-lock hand.

Asking them to table when you have a near-lock is one thing, but IMO there is a line where you can take it too far. Your 87 example is a good one. In that situation, if they hesitate to table their hand, your straight is obviously good and you should table it. You can always legally ask to see their hand anyway if you want.

[Nuevo99]

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I'd probably say, "You don't have the big straight flush do you?" and then table my hand without waiting for a response.

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That's basically what I do when I call with a near-lock hand.

Asking them to table when you have a near-lock is one thing, but IMO there is a line where you can take it too far. Your 87 example is a good one. In that situation, if they hesitate to table their hand, your straight is obviously good and you should table it. You can always legally ask to see their hand anyway if you want.

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I probally havent been playing live poker as long as you guys but I dont see what the big deal is (in PokerFink's scenerio)

To me, Player A is in the wrong for not just showing his hand. Player B only appears to be slowrolling because Player A (whose turn it is to show) refuses to show his hand. Had Player A showed his hand, Player B probally would of showed his right away.

Im going to be Player B all the time, not because I want to slowroll but because I have a right to see what Player A has. I dont care if I have him beat (since I know I have him beat), Im just looking for information that will help later on. (especially if it's someone I really dont know)

But like Ive said before, if the dealer controlled the action in order like they do with the betting rounds, you wouldnt have this problem, it would go more like this:

Dealer: (points to player A) Show your hand! (or muck)
Dealer: (points to player B) Show your hand or fold.

(of course who am I kidding sometimes the dealers dont really control the betting rounds either, at least at our casino)

And actually at the very least if Player A and Player B are sitting there jawing and wont show their hands, the dealer should direct player A to show his hand since he was the bettor. The sooner the dealer does this, the less wasted time is spent and the less it seems like slow rolling.

Again I dont really think in this case it is slow rolling. It may seem like it to Player A but that is because he is usually unaware that he should show his cards in order, or he's trying to get away with not showing them.