LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered - Page 7

The once and future king · #61 12-15-2006, 06:07 PM

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Well, heck you DO have three choices I guess- convert, accept 2nd class citizenship....
or die.

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This is just bollox. 80% of the Muslim world is non Arab and a large number of Muslim states do not persecute those that are non Muslim.

Howard Beale · #62 12-15-2006, 06:15 PM

Ok, you win. The Palestinians are wonderful and the Israelis are devils. Everything the Palestinians do is completely the Israelis fault. You've convinced me...............(nod to Borat)..........NOT!

nicky g · #63 12-15-2006, 06:29 PM

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Ok, you win. The Palestinians are wonderful and the Israelis are devils. Everything the Palestinians do is completely the Israelis fault. NOT!

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I don't think that. I just think it is ridiculous that you blame "Arab culture" for Palestinian political problems that would clearly arise if other non-Arab groups were involved in similar situations. For instance you no doubt blame Arab culture for the Palestinians refusing partition in 1948, when it's patently obvious that no group whatsoever would ever accept the partition of a territory they consituted a large majority in to make way for a state project by recent immigrants. Neither side is wholly good or wholly evil; the problem is the Israelis have always been far too pwerful vis-a-vis the Palestinians for a compromise solution to ever emerge.

Howard Beale · #64 12-15-2006, 06:42 PM

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Ok, you win. The Palestinians are wonderful and the Israelis are devils. Everything the Palestinians do is completely the Israelis fault. NOT!

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I don't think that. I just think it is ridiculous that you blame "Arab culture" for Palestinian political problems that would clearly arise if other non-Arab groups were involved in similar situations. For instance you no doubt blame Arab culture for the Palestinians refusing partition in 1948, when it's patently obvious that no group whatsoever would ever accept the partition of a territory they consituted a large majority in to make way for a state project by recent immigrants. Neither side is wholly good or wholly evil; the problem is the Israelis have always been far too pwerful vis-a-vis the Palestinians for a compromise solution to ever emerge.

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If you review my prior posts on this topic you will find that I've been critical of Israel's actions on occasion. The horrible settlement policy is one of them. And I don't blame the Palestinians for their resistance movement either. However, I do blame them for their intransigence. It is not as if they are alone in the world. Seemingly 'everybody' has tried their hand at helping the parties come to a solution yet there is none. As you would expect, I maintain that the Israelis have shown a far greater willingness to settle than the Palestinians. To what am I supposed to put the degree of Palestinian rejection down to? They have caused trouble in Lebanon and let us not forget what the Jordanians did to them. Consider what they are now doing to each other. What is causing this? Can you point to a precedent? I'm willing to acknowledge the effects of an occupation but this seems altogether too much when there is some degree of goodwill on one side and the pleadings, intervention and help of much of the rest of the world.

nicky g · #65 12-15-2006, 06:51 PM

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I maintain that the Israelis have shown a far greater willingness to settle than the Palestinians.

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Obviously, I don't. You are welcome to try to persuade me with examples, or we can just drop it.

Blaming Palestinians for causing trouble in Lebanon and Jordan is a little unfair. ALl of Lebanon's neighbours plus varying foreing powers and Lebanese themselves have caused trouble there, Israel most of all, and it's not like a single one of those refugees actually wants to be there.

HeavilyArmed · #66 12-15-2006, 07:05 PM

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However, I do blame them (Palestinians) for their intransigence.

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Just so. It is not up to Israel to make peace.

I'm tempted to go on but the word 'barbarian' would be tossed about.

ShakeZula06 · #67 12-15-2006, 07:07 PM

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Just so. It is not up to Israel to make peace.

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Yeah it's not like they took the land they live on from the palestinians or something...

nicky g · #68 12-15-2006, 07:15 PM

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However, I do blame them (Palestinians) for their intransigence.

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Just so. It is not up to Israel to make peace.

I'm tempted to go on but the word 'barbarian' would be tossed about.

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Just so. Making statements intead of arguments is convincing. It is not up to the Janjaweed to stop massacring people. I'm tempted to throw in the word 'supershuttle.'

Howard Beale · #69 12-15-2006, 09:24 PM

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I maintain that the Israelis have shown a far greater willingness to settle than the Palestinians.

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Obviously, I don't. You are welcome to try to persuade me with examples, or we can just drop it.

Blaming Palestinians for causing trouble in Lebanon and Jordan is a little unfair. ALl of Lebanon's neighbours plus varying foreing powers and Lebanese themselves have caused trouble there, Israel most of all, and it's not like a single one of those refugees actually wants to be there.

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No, I know your position and we can stop here. Stop here, that is, at least for now. They will be back at it again in short order.

John Kilduff · #70 12-15-2006, 10:03 PM

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I don't think that. I just think it is ridiculous that you blame "Arab culture" for Palestinian political problems that would clearly arise if other non-Arab groups were involved in similar situations. For instance you no doubt blame Arab culture for the Palestinians refusing partition in 1948, when it's patently obvious that no group whatsoever would ever accept the partition of a territory they consituted a large majority in to make way for a state project by recent immigrants.

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Fine, but most other displaced groups (and there have been many) have not stuck to an "all or nothing" policy, nor resorted to regular suicide bombings.

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Neither side is wholly good or wholly evil; the problem is the Israelis have always been far too pwerful vis-a-vis the Palestinians for a compromise solution to ever emerge.

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Of course neither side is wholly good or evil, and maybe given Israel's power it does not have enough incentive to offer a decent compromise. But it seems that the "all or nothing" mindset and political clout of those with such views amongst the Palestinians, is too widespread, too irrational, and too violent. There are simply too many Palestinian political players (and common people as well) who will accept nothing less than the total destruction of Israel. Now, that's crazy, to fight an irrational and unwinnable battle forever and in the process consign themselves and their descendants to misery on top of unfulfillment. I can't think of another displaced people that has ever adopted such an intransigent, irrational and self-destructive position as the fairly widespread view amongst Palestinians that nothing less than the total destruction of Israel will suffice. And they are thereby choosing to live in misery (instead of building up their own productive resources, and also striving for a compromise) because of that black-or-white viewpoint held by so many. It may well be a minority opinion amongst the Palestinians but it is also fairly widespread. And that is both stupid and crazy.