moving up

[Harv72b]

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i think what dave and eagle were trying to tell me is that luck was the major factor in my winning session, and poor play and ignorance was the major factor when i busted. thier probably right.

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What they are trying to say is that results don't matter. They'll take care of themselves, given enough time. All that matters is how well you play. If I win 100 BBs in a single session, I tend to feel great about that, obviously. That doesn't mean that I'm not upset after the session because I missed a bet on a boat vs. trips hand, or because I folded the best hand to a maniac's turn raise. My goal whenever I sit down at a table is to play a perfect poker session, and no less. If I play perfect poker and lose 100 BBs, that's just poker. If I play imperfect poker and win 200 BBs, then I'm trying to figure out how I could've made it 210.

Anyone can read a few books, log a few hundred hours, and become an average poker player. What separates the average poker players from the good ones is a constant desire to improve their own play, regardless of results. That's why the Phil Iveys and Daniel Negreanus and Doyle Brunsons and Allen Cunninghams of the world are so great--because they are constantly pushing themselves to be better.

Almost anyone can log a winning session, even a huge win, and even without it being pure luck. If you're the 9th worst poker player in the world and sit down at a table with the 8 players worse than you, you have an edge in the game and with neutral luck or close to it, you will come out ahead. That doesn't mean that you're good...just that you were better than your opponents in this particular session, and you ran well enough to take advantage of that. You will still have made a number of mistakes during the session, but come out ahead because your opponents made far more mistakes...and the only way that you will be able to continue winning at that table is if you look at those mistakes and work at correcting them, faster than your opponents can fix their own mistakes.

You're not dumb, you're (probably) not a bad poker player, but you just need to understand this mindset and try as much as possible to divorce yourself from the monetary results. You can't control what cards fall in any given hand, or session. All you can really control is what you do with them.

[PoorTom]

I just want to say: this is a hell of a post kurt. vnh sir.

other than that:

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i find it a little disheartening that luck plays much more of a factor than skill.


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this is true in the short term only. genuinely, consistently good players will win eventually, all other things being equal.

the problem of course is that it might take time, and even the best player in the world will have massive losing runs. if this wasn't the case, poker wouldn't be as lucrative for those players as it is (in the medium/long term). they accept it, and play within their bankrolls to allow for this(well.. except mike matusow!). so should you.

[pfapfap]

Thanks, folks. And maybe fuzz does fit a pattern people here have seen far too often; I can certainly appreciate that. Regardless, there's a lot of great advice in this thread. And as a noob to here, my hat's off to folks for not seeming to degenerate into flamewar as is common in places like this. I'm sure there's stuff I'm missing, but so far I'm impressed with the level-headedness of people here. Then again, emotional trainwrecks don't get good at poker, so it's a self-selecting crowd.

I like what Harv just added about analyzing play, regardless of results. I'll take it a step further and say that when I have a winning session and I don't feel I played optimally, I think if I deserved to win as much, ie did I get lucky chasing draws against the odds? I also think more about the hands I lost as a way to "make" more money than those I won. Figuring out how to have gotten that extra bet in on the winner is easy. Determining where those extra bets slip away in lost hands is key, I feel. A bet saved is a raise earned.

Also, specific to fuzz... seriously considering moving down to 3/6. I'm pretty much at the same point as you in experience (longer time span, but similar hours, without the online play), and the first thing I noticed was that you were capable of losing your entire bankroll at once. I am, too, but I recognize that I'm not technically at the level I should be (I have outside income, so this doesn't concern me, and I do log everything). I'm just now getting back into seriously playing, and I'm running well at 3/6, but would feel slightly less comfortable at 4/8. I guarantee you there are ways you could improve your play to win more and lose less, and moving to 3/6 gives you 1/3 more wiggle room. Where I play, the next level is 6/12, and while I feel I could play that game well, I recognize that for my skill, there are enough better players to make it more difficult for me to play comfortably. So I'm grinding it out at 3/6, where I'm almost always among the best players at the table, flexing my muscles, getting the bankroll up to where I can play 6/12 and screw up and still be able to learn and bounce back and continue.

To give credit to the "move up" idea, there are 1/2 games at my regular house, which I sit in for yuks when waiting for my game, and the insane happens there on a regular basis. But that's not a game where a better player loses less to you. Every pot is huge, and everybody loses to the rake. That is not the case at your game, which means that it is possible to be a winning player. Low limit is frustrating and with huge swings, but good players recognize luck; they don't blame it.

I agree that you should post hand histories. I go over these constantly with a group of players I know, and it's immensely helpful.

[Hellmouth]

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ive been playing 4$-8$ limit at foxwoods now for about 2 years.during that time ive managed to build a modest bankroll, with one very good session in wich i doubled my bankroll a few weeks ago, wich brings me to last week.during 2 24 hour sessions, i lost it all.on tables where i should have done well[3 or 4 LPP'S and 1 or 2 maniacs], time and time again i was sucked out after being ahead after the flop. i cant get into every hand specifically,but i had 4 boats cracked[2 by quads]1 nut flush cracked by a sr8flush, and numerous trips broken by runner runner or miracle rivers, while my strong drawing hands never got there time after time.the only hands i was able to win were against the better players on the tables,while giving it back to the tourists.ive been a student of this game now for about 4 years, studyingbooks from sklansky, malmouth, krieger etc. as well as this site and its excellent forums. while i believei am still an intermediate player, i also believe ive aquired enough skill to beat these low level games, yet my bankroll tells another story.evaluating my play on those last 2 sessions,the only thing i can come up with is that maybe i should try playing higher limits[10$-20$, 20$- 40$] before giving up entirly.can anyone give me some advice on my problem?

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If you won half your bankroll in 1 session are you suprised that you could lose it in two?

Greg

[Hellmouth]

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my reasoning for moving up in limits is that it seems that i win smaller pots against better players and lose bigger pots against weak players.i truly believe if i played against better players during my last break session,although i probably would have had a losing session,i would not have gone broke, maybe even won a little.im i wrong for thinking this?

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Almost there but not quite. You lose bigger pots against bad players because they are bad and put in bets when they shouldn't. However this is also why you want to play them. You should win more then your fair share when they don't suck out on you and the huge pots make for big scores. Unfortunately as you found out they make for big varience as well.

Moving up will cause you to win less pots and less BB when you do take one down.

Greg

[gezuz]

you'd get more encouragement from bbv than nits here.

[fuzz66]

jj is about the third person on this thread who's sensed a bad attitude from my posts.there must be something to it. keep in mind, this is my first post here,and certainly my inexperience will show through. i am asking ''to help me to be a better player'', and i know that most of that will only come with experience. as an intermediate player, i believe i have a good understanding of the basics.after analyzing my play in those last 2 sessions, i realized how rigged and striaght forward my game is[a true sign of only an understanding of the basics].i feel as though ive hit a wall in my attempt to be a better player. i want a better understanding of poker pshycology, i.e. the thought process wich is needed to become a winning player.this is something wich i cannot obtain by studying books, although i try, believe me.again, i apologize if my posts irrated some players here because my lack of knowledge or some kind of attitude that has come across.ive learned a lot from just this one thread with some excellent advice ,tough critism, and positive encouragement.the poker mindset that is presented by players here is what i want to obtain. maybe i should just be an observer for a while, untill i can get to a level where i can be a positive contributer to this site.again, thank you to everyone who took time to reply to this post.

[Harv72b]

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maybe i should just be an observer for a while, untill i can get to a level where i can be a positive contributer to this site.

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Bad idea if you do want to take your game to the next level. Every single top poker player in the world will tell you that one of the things which improved their game the most was discussing hands and various aspects of the game with friends & fellow players. Discussing, not just reading or listening to others.

A big reason why many did not respond very seriously (or nicely) in this thread is that we've seen these exact words so many times here. If anyone ever decided to make a chart detailing all the steps of a maturing poker player, there would be one step which reads "got frustrated at bad beats by terrible opponents, thought I could avoid it by moving up to higher stakes." This would fall one or two notches below the "went busto" step.

If you (or anyone else reading this) ever get really, really bored, go back and look at some of my first posts in the archives. I was so wrong, on so many points, and I'm sure that a lot of the veterans then thought I was just another newbie a*hole that with the same stupid questions who would come & go over the span of a week. I stayed, I kept asking questions and I kept asking for more detailed explanations, and eventually, I started to get it. That's why I'm a winning player today.

Don't take it personally if someone blows off your question or acts like you're an idiot for even thinking something--that's just a result of their having answered that question a billion times already, for other people. Just keep posting, get involved in other peoples' threads, and if someone makes a point that you don't understand, ask if he could explain it further. It (usually) works. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[jjshabado]

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jj is about the third person on this thread who's sensed a bad attitude from my posts.there must be something to it. keep in mind, this is my first post here,and certainly my inexperience will show through. i am asking ''to help me to be a better player'', and i know that most of that will only come with experience. as an intermediate player, i believe i have a good understanding of the basics.after analyzing my play in those last 2 sessions, i realized how rigged and striaght forward my game is[a true sign of only an understanding of the basics].i feel as though ive hit a wall in my attempt to be a better player. i want a better understanding of poker pshycology, i.e. the thought process wich is needed to become a winning player.this is something wich i cannot obtain by studying books, although i try, believe me.again, i apologize if my posts irrated some players here because my lack of knowledge or some kind of attitude that has come across.ive learned a lot from just this one thread with some excellent advice ,tough critism, and positive encouragement.the poker mindset that is presented by players here is what i want to obtain. maybe i should just be an observer for a while, untill i can get to a level where i can be a positive contributer to this site.again, thank you to everyone who took time to reply to this post.

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Meh, I was mostly just being a dick. (I mentioned that I needed a beer. I'm drinking one right now, so I'm nicer.) But if you really want to show that you're trying to improve your game (not to mention take a step that will actually improve your game) post a couple hands you played where you had to make some kind of decision. Explain your logic and reasoning behind your decision, reads about other players, etc.

To be fair I haven't really posted a lot of hands, or commented a lot in my relatively short time here. So I don't want to come off superior, because I'm not.

[hexag1]

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Hey just out of curiousity (I think all that needs to be said here has been) where is foxwoods? I assume we're talking USA but where in USA, I hear a lot of references to it.

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http://www.foxwoods.com/GlobalLinks/...ransportation/