New Fight Question - Page 63

kdotsky · #**621** 12-15-2006, 02:24 PM

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Muhammad Ali against a pro wrestler in Japan

http://www.mutantfrog.com/2006/11/15...antonio-inoki/

Ali was completely ineffective at damaging the wrestler and the wrestler had him on the ground once and Ali was covering his head cowering like a girl. It only got stood up because of an elbow to the face. GG smasharoo.

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You folks really ought to stop using this a reference its absurd, it was a "fixed" fight with strong rules due to the distrust of the "fix" but non the less... FIXED...

Should we also reference

Kimura vs Helio Gracie

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I'm not using it as evidence. I was just amused that Ali couldn't even land a single punch, and still got taken to the ground.

BCPVP · #**622** 12-15-2006, 02:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
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Muhammad Ali against a pro wrestler in Japan

http://www.mutantfrog.com/2006/11/15...antonio-inoki/

Ali was completely ineffective at damaging the wrestler and the wrestler had him on the ground once and Ali was covering his head cowering like a girl. It only got stood up because of an elbow to the face. GG smasharoo.

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You folks really ought to stop using this a reference its absurd, it was a "fixed" fight with strong rules due to the distrust of the "fix" but non the less... FIXED...

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The rules would have favored Ali, as apparently grappling wasn't allowed.

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Should we also reference

Kimura vs Helio Gracie

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Reference it for what?

BCPVP · #**623** 12-15-2006, 02:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Muhammad Ali against a pro wrestler in Japan

http://www.mutantfrog.com/2006/11/15...antonio-inoki/

Ali was completely ineffective at damaging the wrestler and the wrestler had him on the ground once and Ali was covering his head cowering like a girl. It only got stood up because of an elbow to the face. GG smasharoo.

[/ QUOTE ]

You folks really ought to stop using this a reference its absurd, it was a "fixed" fight with strong rules due to the distrust of the "fix" but non the less... FIXED...

Should we also reference

Kimura vs Helio Gracie

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I'm not using it as evidence. I was just amused that Ali couldn't even land a single punch, and still got taken to the ground.

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According to wikipedia, Ali landed 6 punches.

SixT4 · #**624** 12-15-2006, 02:30 PM

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Dangada-dangada-dang ftw

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Clearly Bas Rutten would school every one of them... at the same time. Then he'd play "pull down the pants and hide the spice jar".

Smasharoo · #**625** 12-15-2006, 02:50 PM

Wrong. You claimed athleticism is far more important than technique. In this competition, which is our only real evidence, EVERYONE was weak (this guy would get killed today in UFC). However, he beat the much larger and much more athletic (INCLUDING A PRO BOXER), purely with technique. In fact he did it without even striking. There were huge athletic and size differentials here. It completely invalidates the premise of your entire argument.

Of course it doesn't. But ok, let's have a look. What are the actual details of the event. We'll look it up and see what the reality was as opposed to your abstract imaginary description of it.

Whenever you're ready.

SixT4 · #**626** 12-15-2006, 03:07 PM

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The thing is, you don't have to be a world class boxer to be the best fighter. You have to be the person who can best adapt. The simple truth is that the best MMA fighter will likely be the one who can adapt better because of his training.

Right, he just *couldn't adapt to boxing* and make 100 times as much money for subsantially less risk. Gotcha. Makes perfect sense. UFC guys world class athletes, super adaptable, just not good at boxing.

That makes way more sense than them being second teir fighters competing in a second tier fighting competition.

/sigh. The power of marketing on the average person is really something to behold.

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What do you mean by less risk?

BCPVP · #**627** 12-15-2006, 03:28 PM

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The thing is, you don't have to be a world class boxer to be the best fighter. You have to be the person who can best adapt. The simple truth is that the best MMA fighter will likely be the one who can adapt better because of his training.

Right, he just *couldn't adapt to boxing* and make 100 times as much money for subsantially less risk. Gotcha. Makes perfect sense. UFC guys world class athletes, super adaptable, just not good at boxing.

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He doesn't have to "adapt to boxing". He studies boxing enough to be competent and keep his hands up and deliver punches or slip/counter them. It would be a detriment to his training to *only* study boxing because after a while, diminishing returns sets in and he will have a difficult time defeating people with more rounded skill sets. Becoming a better boxer only helps him if he's going to participate under boxing rules. When you allow kicks, knees, takedowns, and submissions, the whole game changes.

Will you at least concede that if the fight wound up on the ground, the boxer has almost no chance against a skilled MMA fighter?

Smasharoo · #**628** 12-15-2006, 03:48 PM

He doesn't have to "adapt to boxing". He studies boxing enough to be competent and keep his hands up and deliver punches or slip/counter them. It would be a detriment to his training to *only* study boxing because after a while, diminishing returns sets in and he will have a difficult time defeating people with more rounded skill sets. Becoming a better boxer only helps him if he's going to participate under boxing rules. When you allow kicks, knees, takedowns, and submissions, the whole game changes.

You're missing the point. The point isn't that he's not good at boxing because he chose not to study it, the point is that if he could have been a world class boxer, he'd have to be an idiot not to have become a boxer instead as the finacial reward is enormously higher, as is the social recognition etc. etc.

Will you at least concede that if the fight wound up on the ground, the boxer has almost no chance against a skilled MMA fighter?

With that level of vagueness, no. I'd concede that if the fight STARTED on the ground, that the skilled MMA fighter would almost certainly be a heavy favorite.

Megenoita · #**629** 12-15-2006, 03:49 PM

The issue with the elite Navy Seal-like character vs. Fedor Emelianenko is whether before the fight, Fedor learns some lethal maneuvers/defense.

If you just take Fedor today and put him in an enclosed space for a fight to the death with a person of equal size/strength who is a trained killer, real life Rambo dude, Rambo wins b/c the first thing he does is poke Fedor's eyes so he can't see, and bites his neck or some sick [censored] like that. No UFC champ can win if he already lost his vision in the first couple of seconds. He doesn't have enough time to think creatively how to best KILL a person; he's not been trained that way.

The best potential person to be the world's best fight-to-the-death warrior? Yes, Fedor-type. But if you stick them in a cage to die, Rambo wins.

Btw, Mirko Cro-Cop fits both "Elite Navy Seal" type + "UFC Champ" type, as he's by far the #2 fighter in the world (would be UFC champ of heavyweight and light heavyweight by far), and he's on the Croatian anti-terrorism task force.

Blarg · #**630** 12-15-2006, 04:02 PM

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Right, he just *couldn't adapt to boxing* and make 100 times as much money for subsantially less risk. Gotcha. Makes perfect sense. UFC guys world class athletes, super adaptable, just not good at boxing.

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Yeah, pretty much. Grappling ability is more important to have than striking ability. That's why you tend to see short, stout guys (wrestler body types).

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You see plenty of short guys in boxing. Pretty much every Mexican in boxing is short. But they can't let themselves stout, because the competition is so severe that everyone is fighting 10 to 30 pounds below their natural weight. Mike Tyson had very short arms and a very blocky body style. Many heavyweights have big blocky bodies.

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I bet that exhibition fight with Ali was painful for you to watch. Even if it was a money-making stunt, I find it hard to believe that Ali would willingly choose to embarrass himself by not even landing a single punch. And that wrestler didn't come from a big talent pool.

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Nah, only a whole country with tens of millions of people.

Again, I don't see why this silly bout is supposed to prove anything other than that a wrestler and a boxer were equally cautious of each other's prime skill set, as well they should have been. It was a big bore and hardly some kind of big revelation.