Official Barry Bonds Countdown Thread

[NozeCandy]

I'll preface this by saying I don't care about baseball at all and really don't have much of an opinion on Bones.

Two things I repeatedly read from Pro-Bonds camp are that you can't prove he did steroids since he's never been caught and that baseball didn't have a rule banning steroids anyway. Well, didn't he flat out admit to a grand jury that he took them? He said he did it unknowingly, but he still did them. As far as him not breaking the rules, using steroids is against the law, so it really doesn't matter what the MLB says about it.

So what we have here is someone who broke the law (knowingly or not) and used a substance that helped him break this record via improving his strength/endurance/longevity/whatever. I mean, look at the guy. He can barely play full games anymore, so I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that he wouldn't be belting out homers very often at this age or at the rate of the last few years without the steroids. Knowing this, I just don't get how someone can be so hysterically pro-Bonds and say the record isn't tainted at all. Not totally illegitimate when you consider how good Bonds is/was anyway, but somewhat tainted.

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DrewDevil you've had two days and you still can't wrap your mind around this.

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What I can't wrap my mind around is this line of thinking:

Of course everyone knows Bonds took steroids, it's obvious >>>> however, there hasn't been an indictment/suspension/proof beyond a shadow of a doubt >>>> therefore, it's not a "fact" that Bonds took steroids

Whatever.

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On the plus side, this will pretty much get you out of jury duty forever. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[vhawk01]

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I think the whole point of the story is that Bonds was such an enormous douchebag that his teammates wanted him off the team despite the fact he was the best player on the team. Yes, it seems unfathomable, so therefore wow, Bonds must be one of the biggest douchebags of all time.

It's a striking example of how the bad >>>>>>>> the good with Bonds.

Which was tuq's whole point.

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I agree that it is evidence he is a giant douchebag. I was just trying to comment on the sidepoint that it is also evidence that all the guys on that team are whiny bitches who don't care about winning and are probably playing for the wrong reasons. And that it was completely foreign concept to me, and one which I often hear talked about in sports, almost ALWAYS followed by the snide "Have you ever even PLAYED sports after high school?" comment, implying that they really know what its like in the majors and I have no idea.

I guess my point is, Bonds teammates probably hated him, they might still hate him, and I could not possibly care less.

[CharlieDontSurf]

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bonds took roids. can i state it as absolute fact...no


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But when the rules explicitly state "a player is only considered to be in violation of this policy if he fails an MLB administered drug test."????

It's a black and white issue as far as the rules are concerned, and I'm not talking about race.

If you hit the ball on this side of the line, it is foul.

If you hit it on the line or on that other side, it is fair.

Rules are rules. The media can't just go ignoring them or twisting them to fit their desired outcome just because they don't like a guy.

Of course, they can in the court of public opinion, and they most certainly have....but that doesn't change what is spelled out in black and white in the rules, nor the fact that Barry hasn't broken them.

Let's review:

"...a player is only considered to be in violation of this policy if he fails an MLB administered drug test."

Barry Bonds has done this ZERO times.

"(d) A fair ball passes over a fence or into the stands at a distance from home base of 250 feet or more. Such hit entitles the batter to a home run when he shall have touched all bases legally."

Barry Bonds has done this 753 times.

Addding his 3 ITP HR's --->

That gives us a total of 756 home runs...
...minus the zero steroid policy violations...

EQUALS....

Home Run King.


And let us not forget....the MLBPA fought vigorously to exclude blood testing, which is the only reliable method of detecting HGH-- and stood equally as firm on the insistence that the testing policy be limited in scope to only MLB administered tests....(wouldn't want those police tests after a wayward traffic stop being used).

The irony of course being... every single active MLB player at the time of the negotiations approved of and voted in favor, via proxy, of the verbage of this agreement.

Except for one. The one that wasn't a member of the MLBPA.

The one and only Home Run King.

If anything, Barry Bonds is the least culpable of all active major league players in the way the steroids policy was agreed about and employed.

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You've basically just said the classic he hasn't tested positive so despite lots of evidence of him using and him admitting he accidentally took them...we should disregard his steroid use.

Lance never tested positive..still pretty damn sure he used.

But Lance > Bonds cuz Bonds never got cancer and came back to own everyone in his sport

[tuq]

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He likes to tell stories and has a lot of interesting ones to share, both about baseball and his work as a firefighter.

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Whoa, I think we may have another scandal brewing here.

tup, any chance Bonds started some/all of those fires?

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All, IMO.

[vhawk01]

I'm still hoping I can get someone to respond from the "This record is steroid-enhanced" camp to clarify that statement a bit. It is one of those comments that seems logical and rational if you only think about it for like ten seconds, but is actually incredibly stupid and incorrect when you think about it for eleven or more. I hear it a lot with regards to modern equipment and weight training, and it is just as stupid there.

This record was not steroid-enhanced. It might be tainted, because thats a subjective, public opinion type deal, but it wasn't enhanced.

[DrewDevil]

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Two things I repeatedly read from Pro-Bonds camp are that you can't prove he did steroids since he's never been caught and that baseball didn't have a rule banning steroids anyway. Well, didn't he flat out admit to a grand jury that he took them? He said he did it unknowingly, but he still did them. As far as him not breaking the rules, using steroids is against the law, so it really doesn't matter what the MLB says about it.

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He admitted taking a substance that he thought was flaxseed oil but was actually steroids. Of course, Redbean hilariously wants a chemical analysis of the substance to establish definitively that it was steroids, even though no one has ever disputed that it was in fact steroids. Not even Bonds.

Also, steroids were banned from MLB by commissioner Fay Vincent in 1991, though there was no testing until recently. So using steroids has been against the rules and therefore cheating since 1991.

[NozeCandy]

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Two things I repeatedly read from Pro-Bonds camp are that you can't prove he did steroids since he's never been caught and that baseball didn't have a rule banning steroids anyway. Well, didn't he flat out admit to a grand jury that he took them? He said he did it unknowingly, but he still did them. As far as him not breaking the rules, using steroids is against the law, so it really doesn't matter what the MLB says about it.

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He admitted taking a substance that he thought was flaxseed oil but was actually steroids. Of course, Redbean hilariously wants a chemical analysis of the substance to establish definitively that it was steroids, even though no one has ever disputed that it was in fact steroids. Not even Bonds.

Also, steroids were banned from MLB by commissioner Fay Vincent in 1991, though there was no testing until recently. So using steroids has been against the rules and therefore cheating since 1991.

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True, I forgot about Vincent doing that. Tons of Bonds supporters still say it wasn't against the rules, I was just trying to disprove that in a way. Oh well, all that does is enhance my point.

[samsonh]

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bonds took roids. can i state it as absolute fact...no


[/ QUOTE ]

But when the rules explicitly state "a player is only considered to be in violation of this policy if he fails an MLB administered drug test."????

It's a black and white issue as far as the rules are concerned, and I'm not talking about race.

If you hit the ball on this side of the line, it is foul.

If you hit it on the line or on that other side, it is fair.

Rules are rules. The media can't just go ignoring them or twisting them to fit their desired outcome just because they don't like a guy.

Of course, they can in the court of public opinion, and they most certainly have....but that doesn't change what is spelled out in black and white in the rules, nor the fact that Barry hasn't broken them.

Let's review:

"...a player is only considered to be in violation of this policy if he fails an MLB administered drug test."

Barry Bonds has done this ZERO times.

"(d) A fair ball passes over a fence or into the stands at a distance from home base of 250 feet or more. Such hit entitles the batter to a home run when he shall have touched all bases legally."

Barry Bonds has done this 753 times.

Addding his 3 ITP HR's --->

That gives us a total of 756 home runs...
...minus the zero steroid policy violations...

EQUALS....

Home Run King.


And let us not forget....the MLBPA fought vigorously to exclude blood testing, which is the only reliable method of detecting HGH-- and stood equally as firm on the insistence that the testing policy be limited in scope to only MLB administered tests....(wouldn't want those police tests after a wayward traffic stop being used).

The irony of course being... every single active MLB player at the time of the negotiations approved of and voted in favor, via proxy, of the verbage of this agreement.

Except for one. The one that wasn't a member of the MLBPA.

The one and only Home Run King.

If anything, Barry Bonds is the least culpable of all active major league players in the way the steroids policy was agreed about and employed.

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You've basically just said the classic he hasn't tested positive so despite lots of evidence of him using and him admitting he accidentally took them...we should disregard his steroid use.

Lance never tested positive..still pretty damn sure he used.

But Lance > Bonds cuz Bonds never got cancer and came back to own everyone in his sport

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Agreeing with everything Tuq & CDS are saying. The main reason people don't get caught is that the substances are not detectable. Imagine if MLB or NFL had a policy similar to Track and Field or the Tour. And even with their exhausting tests athletes cheat the system by taking new drugs that investigators have no idea about.

[DrewDevil]

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I'm still hoping I can get someone to respond from the "This record is steroid-enhanced" camp to clarify that statement a bit. It is one of those comments that seems logical and rational if you only think about it for like ten seconds, but is actually incredibly stupid and incorrect when you think about it for eleven or more. I hear it a lot with regards to modern equipment and weight training, and it is just as stupid there.

This record was not steroid-enhanced. It might be tainted, because thats a subjective, public opinion type deal, but it wasn't enhanced.

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I don't understand what you are saying.

Steroids absolutely enhance the effectiveness of the home run hitter. Are you seriously disputing THAT?

And please, don't trot out the strawman "Steroids don't help you connect with the baseball," because no one's ever claimed that they do. They just make the ball go farther and faster when you connect.

Also, weight training and superior nutrition are not against the rules, which is how sentient beings distinguish between them and steroids on the culpability scale.