Omnipotence Doesn't Imply Seeing The Future.

[soon2bepro]

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How do we tell what a fictional entity can and cannot do. Well obviously we read the book and that will tell us.

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ROFLMAO!!! That was very funny [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

(by the way, when I said the way we see time might be flawed I was referring to the back to the future-idea that time is a line and a different reality exists for every point in that line, so you can jump back and forward. Of course God could make time go back (make things go backwards, or just change everything to meet the required standard; but it really doesn't matter. Your interpretation was as good as any))


guesswest: The problem with treating with something that exceeds logic is that we cannot possibly comprehend it. The only way we are able to understand reality is through logic. If you say something works in a non-logical manner, then we are unable to understand it and therefore we have no place talking/thinking about it.
Im not saying that you can't come to a conclusion that something exceeds logic, but that could be the case. Im not sure yet.

chezlaw: You're right.

[hashi92]

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guesswest: Omnipotence doesn't mean power above and beyond the constraints of logic. It could mean that, but it's not the meaning we're giving it. What we're saying (at least what i'm saying) is that omnipotence is power over all things logical. (I assume the universe worlks only logically, as I as a human being can't understand any other type of method)

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if we use this definition we are disproving God. nothing that God or any religon does is logical. Get out your permanent maker and bible. start crossing out all the parts in the bible that are not logical. what do you have left. hmmm.

[soon2bepro]

hashi: Im sorry to say this to you (you will probably be offended), but I think you don't know what logic is.

I'd explain, if only I thought you'd be open to listen. I don't.

[hashi92]

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hashi: Im sorry to say this to you (you will probably be offended), but I think you don't know what logic is.

I'd explain, if only I thought you'd be open to listen. I don't.

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found for LOGIC.
log·ic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ljk)
n.
The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.

A system of reasoning: Aristotle's logic.
A mode of reasoning: By that logic, we should sell the company tomorrow.
The formal, guiding principles of a discipline, school, or science.
Valid reasoning: Your paper lacks the logic to prove your thesis.
The relationship between elements and between an element and the whole in a set of objects, individuals, principles, or events: There's a certain logic to the motion of rush-hour traffic.
Computer Science.
The nonarithmetic operations performed by a computer, such as sorting, comparing, and matching, that involve yes-no decisions.
Computer circuitry.
Graphic representation of computer circuitry.

[hashi92]

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hashi: Im sorry to say this to you (you will probably be offended), but I think you don't know what logic is.

I'd explain, if only I thought you'd be open to listen. I don't.

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ist it logical to believe

that god created the world in 7 days
a virgin birth
ressurection
walking on water
any miracle
all miracles defy logic

you cant be logical when talking about religon because its not logical.

[soon2bepro]

As I said, you don't know what logic is. I'll try to define it for you:

Logic is the process through which we understand how reality works. It's the process of cause-consecuence (causality). In other words: "If A, then B."


Some explanation (for the other readers mostly):

Whether your particular reasoning guides you to conclude that a virgin can't give birth or whatever other miracles out there "can't happen" (that they happened in a way that is not logical) is irrelevant. You merely don't understand why these things happened, but if you were to understand them, you'd need logic. You're using logic when you say "God made this happen, that is why this happened".

Every reasoning, every human understanding of reality is logical. Of course, how you apply that logic is what turns some conclusion to be scientifically/rationally correct or not; but all are logical. All are based in logic.

[hashi92]

[ QUOTE ]
As I said, you don't know what logic is. I'll try to define it for you:

Logic is the process through which we understand how reality works. It's the process of cause-consecuence (causality). In other words: "If A, then B."


Some explanation (for the other readers mostly):

Whether your particular reasoning guides you to conclude that a virgin can't give birth or whatever other miracles out there "can't happen" (that they happened in a way that is not logical) is irrelevant. You merely don't understand why these things happened, but if you were to understand them, you'd need logic. You're using logic when you say "God made this happen, that is why this happened".

Every reasoning, every human understanding of reality is logical. Of course, how you apply that logic is what turns some conclusion to be scientifically/rationally correct or not; but all are logical. All are based in logic.

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can you logically explain to me how these things happened. for instance the virgin birth. An answer like God or the bible says it does is not logical because theres no reasoning behind it.

[hashi92]

[ QUOTE ]
As I said, you don't know what logic is. I'll try to define it for you:

Logic is the process through which we understand how reality works. It's the process of cause-consecuence (causality). In other words: "If A, then B."


Some explanation (for the other readers mostly):

Whether your particular reasoning guides you to conclude that a virgin can't give birth or whatever other miracles out there "can't happen" (that they happened in a way that is not logical) is irrelevant. You merely don't understand why these things happened, but if you were to understand them, you'd need logic. You're using logic when you say "God made this happen, that is why this happened".

Every reasoning, every human understanding of reality is logical. Of course, how you apply that logic is what turns some conclusion to be scientifically/rationally correct or not; but all are logical. All are based in logic.

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i agree with your definition of logic but if you cant explain why A than B the idea is illogical. if you can explain it then it becomes logical. can you explain how jesus made water become wine logically.

[hashi92]

[ QUOTE ]
As I said, you don't know what logic is. I'll try to define it for you:

Logic is the process through which we understand how reality works. It's the process of cause-consecuence (causality). In other words: "If A, then B."


Some explanation (for the other readers mostly):

Whether your particular reasoning guides you to conclude that a virgin can't give birth or whatever other miracles out there "can't happen" (that they happened in a way that is not logical) is irrelevant. You merely don't understand why these things happened, but if you were to understand them, you'd need logic. You're using logic when you say "God made this happen, that is why this happened".

Every reasoning, every human understanding of reality is logical. Of course, how you apply that logic is what turns some conclusion to be scientifically/rationally correct or not; but all are logical. All are based in logic.

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log·i·cal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lj-kl)
adj.
Of, relating to, in accordance with, or of the nature of logic.
Based on earlier or otherwise known statements, events, or conditions; reasonable: Rain was a logical expectation, given the time of year.
Reasoning or capable of reasoning in a clear and consistent manner.

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logi·cali·ty (-kl-t) or logi·cal·ness n.
logi·cal·ly adv.
Synonyms: logical, analytic, ratiocinative, rational
These adjectives mean capable of or reflecting the capability for correct and valid reasoning: a logical mind; an analytic thinker; the ratiocinative process; a rational being.
Antonyms: illogical

[soon2bepro]

Whether I can produce a scientifically correct argument or not makes no difference to the matter (if there's logic in it or not).

I'll agree that when people refer to something as "logical" or "illogical" what they're actually saying is whether that is scientifically correct or not; or maybe even "logically correct" or not [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

But if you use my definition of logic, there is no argument, no explanation, no reasoning, no concept that doesn't use logic as it's method.

That doesn't mean, however, that they're all scientifically/logically/rationally correct.

Neither does that mean that everything does in fact work with logic. Only that we can only comprehend things that do. (and therefore, for practical purposes, we must assume that everyhing does)

What I want you to understand, is that when someone says: "*This* (B) happened because *God did it* (A)", he's using logic to explain why that happened.

You can then ask how God did it, demand an explanation or whatever. You can question the credibility, the reasoning behind that argument. You can even deem it as a fairy tale. It will nonetheless be an argument based in logic.

I can say: "*The mountains on earth are high* (B) because *there's a very small organism in tokio called kiku that likes to fly around and sing metallica songs* (A)"

Does that make any sense to you? No, it doesn't. But it's still based in human logic.