Help -- I have NEVER seen this happen before.

[youtalkfunny]

[ QUOTE ]
it was noticed that the dealer had not burned a card...
The flop was destroyed cards shuffled and the flop re dealt

[/ QUOTE ]

Terrible ruling.

[smoore]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it was noticed that the dealer had not burned a card...
The flop was destroyed cards shuffled and the flop re dealt

[/ QUOTE ]

Terrible ruling.

[/ QUOTE ]

What should happen here?

[El Diablo]

ep.

"FLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[Rick Nebiolo]

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it was noticed that the dealer had not burned a card...
The flop was destroyed cards shuffled and the flop re dealt

[/ QUOTE ]

Terrible ruling.

[/ QUOTE ]

What should happen here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's pretend a floor was called at the proper time. Per the lead post these seem to be the relevant facts:

"Flop is J 8 3

Lady checks, other limper checks, CO bets $20, I raise to $70, Lady pushes all in for ~$150, one fold, CO folds, I call.

Lady turns over Q Q

The turn is 9 and the river is 2, lady says, "Nice hand." "Thanks," I reply, getting ready to rake a pot of about $350.

"Wait a second," the dealer says. "I think I made a mistake. I think I burned one too many before the turn."

Before I can even respond, he turns the turn and river cards face down and fishes two cards out of the muck.

"These are the correct turn and river," he says. And one of the cards he turns over is the Q.

Immediately, the old lady reaches for the pile of chips. "Wait a second, what's going on?" I ask heatedly. "You dealt the turn and river!"

"I know," the dealer responds. "But for some reason I didn't think anyone was betting the flop, so I got ready to deal the turn and I burned one. Then people started betting, and then I burned an extra card when we went to the turn."

If there was no action after the dealer made the mistake (and essentially there wasn't here) AND one could be 100% sure that the cards could be replaced correctly (not sure at all here given the dealer was fishing in the muck) then the floor could fix things.

But even if the correct cards could be clearly identified if action followed the mistake (e.g., there was another better (not all in) involved after the turn) then the mistake is "accepted" by the fact that action followed the mistake. In this case the turn/river cannot be corrected.

~ Rick

[dicelumpY2005]

I am really interested in knowing which dealer this was... I visit all 3 poker rooms in the area quite frequently (Seneca Niagara on the US side, and Fallsview and Casino Niagara on the Canadian side), and the dealers at Seneca Niagara are without a doubt, 100X better than the ones in Canada. I would even go as far as to say they are better than a lot of rooms I've been to in Vegas. I am not doubting the OP, but I seriously am interested in knowing which dealer there would attempt such a thing.

[psandman]

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there's "Robert's rules of poker" (Bob Caffione). Each card room keeps thier own modified version of these AFAIK. In any case, the dealer isn't supposed to fix a mistake, that's the floor's job. Dealers make mistakes, floor managers fix them.

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Some mistakes can be fixed by the dealer.

For example, somebody is only dealt one card (not the button, that is fixed right away) and attention is brought to the mistake before anyone has acted. It's a misdeal and if the table is full of regulars they all know it. No need to call over a usually busy floor.

But if a newbie starts to protest (he probably holds nice cards) then the floor should still be called. If there is some question regarding how much action there was before the mistake was discovered than the floor should be called. If there seems to be a significant protest from one of the players, then the floor should be called.

OTOH, this situation was about as seriously in need of a floor decision as any I've seen. I'm easy on dealers but this is unforgivable.

~ Rick

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A (now former) dealer in my room apparently screwed up and handled a boxed card incorrectly which caused a big hassle. The result was that the next time I came in there was a memo that said Dealers were to not make ANY decsion from the box and that this included the handling of exposed cards on the deal. That didn't last very long as the floor got tired of being called every time a card got exposed on the deal, and the players also would get upset about having the game come to a standstill waiting for the floor for this.

At the time I was still pretty new, but if that memo came out today when I know how much I can get away with (and which floor people have a sense of humor) the first hand that went to showdown I would call the floor:

Floor: What's the problem?

Me: Well this player has a pair of Aces with a Jack kicker, and this player has a pair of Queens with a 9 kicker.

Floor: And whats the problem?

Me: Well Who wins? The memo said I'm not supposed to make any decisions from the box.

[smoore]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it was noticed that the dealer had not burned a card...
The flop was destroyed cards shuffled and the flop re dealt

[/ QUOTE ]

Terrible ruling.

[/ QUOTE ]

What should happen here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I figured the floor could fix the mistake in the OP because there was no action. I was unsure whether the board would stand with further action, thanks for clearing that up, ElD.

What's supposed to happen specifically in the Juanda hand?

[youtalkfunny]

Take the three flop cards, and put them back on top of the deck, in their original order. Since the link is from something called "Poker in Europe", and they deal the flop one card at a time on the WPT Paris show, this should be easy. If the dealer spreads the flop, it's still not rocket science to back the cards up to the top of the deck.

Once you've got them back to where they belong, burn and spread a flop. Show everyone the exposed burn card. This keeps the cards in their original order.

All this presumes there was no action on the flop, which is the impression I got from the post.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
there's "Robert's rules of poker" (Bob Caffione). Each card room keeps thier own modified version of these AFAIK. In any case, the dealer isn't supposed to fix a mistake, that's the floor's job. Dealers make mistakes, floor managers fix them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some mistakes can be fixed by the dealer.

For example, somebody is only dealt one card (not the button, that is fixed right away) and attention is brought to the mistake before anyone has acted. It's a misdeal and if the table is full of regulars they all know it. No need to call over a usually busy floor.

But if a newbie starts to protest (he probably holds nice cards) then the floor should still be called. If there is some question regarding how much action there was before the mistake was discovered than the floor should be called. If there seems to be a significant protest from one of the players, then the floor should be called.

OTOH, this situation was about as seriously in need of a floor decision as any I've seen. I'm easy on dealers but this is unforgivable.

~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

A (now former) dealer in my room apparently screwed up and handled a boxed card incorrectly which caused a big hassle. The result was that the next time I came in there was a memo that said Dealers were to not make ANY decsion from the box and that this included the handling of exposed cards on the deal. That didn't last very long as the floor got tired of being called every time a card got exposed on the deal, and the players also would get upset about having the game come to a standstill waiting for the floor for this.

At the time I was still pretty new, but if that memo came out today when I know how much I can get away with (and which floor people have a sense of humor) the first hand that went to showdown I would call the floor:

Floor: What's the problem?

Me: Well this player has a pair of Aces with a Jack kicker, and this player has a pair of Queens with a 9 kicker.

Floor: And whats the problem?

Me: Well Who wins? The memo said I'm not supposed to make any decisions from the box.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, good story.

When I worked for a defense department aerospace contractor in the eighties I had a mentor who was the Technical Director in the Program Office. One of his favorite expressions was "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" which sort of was a catch-all to counter the tendency for some "problem solvers" to over-react to just about everything.

In most businesses I've looked at the best possible policy sort of like hitting the bulls-eye on a dartboard on the wall. Well even the smartest and most well-intended manager/policy-maker usually won't hit the bulls-eye first try. But in my experience in cardrooms the corrections to policy rarely get closer to the target. If six inches north first try expect a foot south the second try. Soon the policy misses the dartboard all together. Before you know it the policy darts are hitting the opposite wall.

Fundamentally card rooms and casino poker rooms are not a competitive business so managers can get away with missing a lot of targets. In places such as AC and LV casinos are competitive, but even with the recent boom poker rooms are barely a blip on the radar to upper management. So the poker rooms can screw up quite a bit and still hang on.

Cardrooms where poker is a significant part of gambling revenue do exist, but I can't think of one local where the business is open to new competition (e.g., in LA it's impossible to get a new cardroom license). Despite my experience working with many fine people and managers within the cardroom business, incompetent cardroom management can do much better than they would in a truly competitive business.

~ Rick

[smoore]

[ QUOTE ]
Take the three flop cards, and put them back on top of the deck, in their original order. Since the link is from something called "Poker in Europe", and they deal the flop one card at a time on the WPT Paris show, this should be easy. If the dealer spreads the flop, it's still not rocket science to back the cards up to the top of the deck.

Once you've got them back to where they belong, burn and spread a flop. Show everyone the exposed burn card. This keeps the cards in their original order.

All this presumes there was no action on the flop, which is the impression I got from the post.

[/ QUOTE ]

thank you.