Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest

[BluffTHIS!]

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So do Catholics believe that Mormons get into Heaven by the skin of their teeth much like Protestants feel that way about Catholics?

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Catholics don't know what the judgement of the individual soul will be upon death. It is possible for any human being, including a Mormon, to get into Heaven so long as they exhibit perfect contrition for their sins and invincible ignorance as to their choice of religion.

The point is, God will give every human being in their lifetime the necessary graces to get into Heaven. No one is prejudged. The question is whether the person will choose to cooperate with those graces or not.

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Just to be clear about Catholic teaching, though of course I agree with the above statement in reply to David, i.e. that all persons, including sincere non/un-believers get a certain minimal chance to be saved, such doesn't preclude the possibility that God does play favorites to some degree in giving some persons more chances/grace than others.

As an example, let's say that every person had to walk past a certain church once or more in their lifetimes, and that only an invitation to enter could lead to salvation. So you walk by and get the invitation and decline. But maybe you walk by every month and get the same invitation, that is, many chances. But someone else, for whatever reason, be it his reaction to earlier invitations, or nothing to do with same, only gets precisely one invitation, which having been declined, he doesn't receive again. So while it would still be true that everyone who lives gets at least one invitation, some may get many more chances if they initially decline. This would be similar to God hardening Pharoah's heart *after* refusing the pleadings of Moses to let His people go.

[Hopey]

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<font color="red"> NO - IT WAS NOT WRITTEN BY MEN WHO CLAIMED IT WAS THE WORD OF GOD.</font>


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If it was not written by men, then who wrote it? And if they did not claim it was the word of god, then whose word did they claim it was?

[Praxising]

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<font color="red"> NO - IT WAS NOT WRITTEN BY MEN WHO CLAIMED IT WAS THE WORD OF GOD.</font>


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If it was not written by men, then who wrote it? And if they did not claim it was the word of god, then whose word did they claim it was?

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The Jews, like most desert, herding peoples, had no writing for the most part; they had oral history long after settled farming cultures had written records. They became a mixed culture of herders and farmers, with cities, they fought wars their little piece of land and divided essentially into the North and South.

Sometime, probably during the reign of Solomon, or at the end of David's reign, but scholars favor Solomon these days, they had the time and leisure and safety to write down thier history and law. Those who wrote it didn't "claim" it was anyone's word, Scribes simply did their jobs. These first writings comprise most of the Pentateuch, the first five book of Scripture. But, the first thirteen chapters, the folklore of the time, the origin story and Noah and so forth, is thought to have been added later.

Abraham is considered to be the first historical person in Scripture.

Now. The North and South had their own traditions and writing and it was still later that those two sets of writings were merged into what became the those first five books.

Centuries later, during the first exile into Babylon, priests wrote that history and refined, edited, whatever, the first books.

So, theoretically, the Pentateuch alone had four writers (not literally, but four traditions, there were surely a dozen writers at least) known as the Yawist, the Elohist, the Deuteronomist and the Priestly author.

No one who wrote the variety of books that were bound together ONLY in the last few hundred years, the plays, songs, histories, laws, all of that, thought anyone but themselves wrote Scripture.

I suggest Reading the Old Testament by Boadt (basic, kinda fun reading) and The Book by Christopher DeHamel which is about the history of the physical thing: not the writing, but follows the actual extant documents.

[Praxising]

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Just to be clear about Catholic teaching, though of course I agree with the above statement in reply to David, i.e. that all persons, including sincere non/un-believers get a certain minimal chance to be saved, ....

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No, EVERYONE has the same "chance" and "saved" is not Christian Catholic theology. The whole concept was invented by people who misread one sentence in the Gospels.

Let me make this clearer - the Church, while she does occaisonally declare some people to be known to be in Heaven, never says anyone is in hell. Jesus, (the Guy we are all trying to become the image of in life and failing but keepin' on) told us that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will see the Kingdom of God, that His Father's House has many rooms, rooms for everyone, you see.

Because He said, and pay attention because this IS the point:

"When I am raised up, I will draw EVERYONE to myself."

God favors no one, loves no one more nor less than any other.

"Invinceable ignorance" does not mean you have never heard the name of Christ - it means you have not been able to understand the Truth, whatever the source.

You think God kept the truth from South Seas islanders until someone showed up with a Bible in their hand? Or keeps it from you because a lot of ignorant fundies who never read the thing thumped you on the head with The Book?

Do you believe mercy is better than cruelty? Do you live that way or try to?

Then you, my dear atheistic friend, <font color="purple"> are a follower of Christ. </font>

You don't need "saving."

[Peter666]

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Just to be clear about Catholic teaching, though of course I agree with the above statement in reply to David, i.e. that all persons, including sincere non/un-believers get a certain minimal chance to be saved, ....

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No, EVERYONE has the same "chance" and "saved" is not Christian Catholic theology. The whole concept was invented by people who misread one sentence in the Gospels.

Let me make this clearer - the Church, while she does occaisonally declare some people to be known to be in Heaven, never says anyone is in hell. Jesus, (the Guy we are all trying to become the image of in life and failing but keepin' on) told us that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will see the Kingdom of God, that His Father's House has many rooms, rooms for everyone, you see.

Because He said, and pay attention because this IS the point:

"When I am raised up, I will draw EVERYONE to myself."

God favors no one, loves no one more nor less than any other.

"Invinceable ignorance" does not mean you have never heard the name of Christ - it means you have not been able to understand the Truth, whatever the source.

You think God kept the truth from South Seas islanders until someone showed up with a Bible in their hand? Or keeps it from you because a lot of ignorant fundies who never read the thing thumped you on the head with The Book?

Do you believe mercy is better than cruelty? Do you live that way or try to?

Then you, my dear atheistic friend, <font color="purple"> are a follower of Christ. </font>

You don't need "saving."

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Oy vey, there is truth and some distortion in both these posts. Does God play favourites? Apparently yes, for St. John was his favourite Apostle. Does he give some people more chances than others? Most certainly yes. There are sinners who live a long time throwing away chance after chance, while some bad young kid gets hit by a bus and goes to Hell. Does this mean much in the whole scheme of things? Not really.

All depends on the particular merit one earns when corresponding with grace. One of Sklansky's forgotten African children can end up having a greater place in Heaven than the Pope of Rome because his one little kindness to his neighbour was done with such a love of God that it merits eternal glory. We really don't know.

It is the Protestant attitude that sees hard work, thrift, godly living and business success as evidence of God's grace. Not Catholics. The human perception of the world is not the way God sees things, and He acts through grace and love.

Every soul is an individual case working with God, and God will be the final judge in the matter.

[yukoncpa]

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Oy vey, there is truth and some distortion in both these posts. Does God play favourites? Apparently yes, for St. John was his favourite Apostle. Does he give some people more chances than others? Most certainly yes. There are sinners who live a long time throwing away chance after chance, while some bad young kid gets hit by a bus and goes to Hell. Does this mean much in the whole scheme of things? Not really.

All depends on the particular merit one earns when corresponding with grace. One of Sklansky's forgotten African children can end up having a greater place in Heaven than the Pope of Rome because his one little kindness to his neighbour was done with such a love of God that it merits eternal glory. We really don't know.

It is the Protestant attitude that sees hard work, thrift, godly living and business success as evidence of God's grace. Not Catholics. The human perception of the world is not the way God sees things, and He acts through grace and love.

Every soul is an individual case working with God, and God will be the final judge in the matter.


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I was born and raised Mormon, I’m now agnostic, but I volunteer my time with Catholic services because I agree with the Catholics in my community wanting to help poor people out. Catholics don’t ask questions. The Protestants in my community can’t even run a soup kitchen without handing out bibles. I enjoy all the Catholics I work with. None save one talks about religion. The one that does, is simply opposed to Catholics view on birth control and it’s problems in third world countries. None of the other Catholics argue or disagree with this one person, indeed every Catholic I work with seems very laid back and down to earth. The nuns all have fun stories that they tell. Just thought I’d share my experience Peter, you folks seem nice.

[Peter666]

Thanks for the nice story. Here's one about Mormons. I took a security course that was taught by a long time US Secret Service agent who protected the President. He said in order to join the service, one needed a University degree, a clean criminal record, and health check. Of all the recruits, the Mormons were the go to guys because most of the other applicants had blemished their records by experimenting with drugs in College.

I find it ironic that certain Americans do not have a problem with Mormons putting their life on the line to protect the President of the United States, but would have a problem voting for one to become President.

[Praxising]

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Oy vey, there is truth and some distortion in both these posts. Does God play favourites? Apparently yes, for St. John was his favourite Apostle. Does he give some people more chances than others? Most certainly yes. There are sinners who live a long time throwing away chance after chance, while some bad young kid gets hit by a bus and goes to Hell. Does this mean much in the whole scheme of things? Not really.

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Ya think? Not sure there's any such thing as a "bad young kid" in God's eyes. Maybe God thinks he just suffered enough and can hang out in Purgatory for a while before moving on to heaven.

As for St. John, it doesn't say he was Jesus' favorite Apostle. It says he was the "one Jesus loved." Or, it says the one Jesus loved wrote the Gospel we attribute to St John. I read a really interesting Master's thesis someone had posted online years ago arguing that Magdalene wrote it.

Makes a lot of sense when you read the Gnostics and then go back and look at the Gospel of St. John. In any case, Jesus was true man as well as God, so I imagine if He had a favorite, a best friend or lover/wife, or whatever, it would be Jesus as man not Christ as God. But the Triune God does not have favorites, at least, I'm pretty sure it would be impossible by definition. Your mileage may vary.

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One of Sklansky's forgotten African children can end up having a greater place in Heaven than the Pope of Rome because his one little kindness to his neighbour was done with such a love of God that it merits eternal glory.

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Exactly.

[Poker monkey]

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So do Catholics believe that Mormons get into Heaven by the skin of their teeth much like Protestants feel that way about Catholics?

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Who cares?

[mrick]

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certain Americans do not have a problem with Mormons putting their life on the line to protect the President of the United States, but would have a problem voting for one to become President.

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DUCY?????