2007 tour de france

[gila]

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Armstrong, Basso, Indurain, Hinault, Merckx and etc etc don't really qualify as climbers in the classic sense (grimpeurs) since they were very complete all around riders.



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Yea, I understand what your saying. I guess I was more thinking climbing ability. For, although Armstrong was such an overall bike rider, the "pure" climbers of his era couldn't touch him in the climbs, with the possible exception of Pantani.

As for "pure" climbers I have seen, and I have only been watching for about 10 years, Pantani was the best, even though when I was watching him he was on the decline.

Other than that they are few and far between. Heras was probably the next best. Mayo, when he was riding well about 5 years ago was very strong, as was his teammate Zubeldia. They are two of the very few riders that at least tried to attack Armstrong. Simomi was also a great climber, especially in the giro. I would also put Rasmussen in this select group.

Besides some of Armstrong's tours, probably the best overall climbing (although not by a "pure" climber) in a tour I have seen was Basso in the Giro he won. He was so untouchable it was ridiculous. Of course, he was probably doped out of the world too.

[cbloom]

I don't understand why a team like Astana doesn't let Kloden and Vino both go for GC; see who's got it in the Alps and then work for that one. Supposedly Kloden was the one who was hurt worse in their crashes but it certainly didn't show.

[JaredL]

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Yea, I understand what your saying. I guess I was more thinking climbing ability. For, although Armstrong was such an overall bike rider, the "pure" climbers of his era couldn't touch him in the climbs, with the possible exception of Pantani.

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I really think Heras was as strong as Armstrong in a couple of those tours but was his teammate and wouldn't have been a GC threat anyway due to his terrible time trialing so he rode tempo and worked a lot more. He also had his training peak later so he would have been just getting into form for the tour to work for Lance and then peaking later for the Vuelta, which he dominated.

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what about moreau? he looked very strong i thought.

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Yeah unfortunately he did. I happen to hate him but I don't think there is any doubt that he is stronger right now than he has been in many many years. His results before the Tour speak for themselves and it's also rare that he has actually been able to finish with the best.
At least for the time being we won't have to deal with french tv wasting airtime of him struggling far behind where the real action is.
I wonder if his form can last for two more weeks though.

When it comes to his attacks I'm not really sure how much of it is showboating trying to endear himself to a french public desperately starving for someone or something to root for and how much is real strenght.
It didn't look like to me that he was commiting himself fully.
It was a weird situation though and afterwards Moreau was complaining about the lack of collaboration in that group. That if they instead of launching attacks left and right, had held a steady pace, they could have put more distance to Vino and Klöden.
All true but it looked like to me at least, that often it was Moreau instigating those dumb half hearted attacks which time and time again broke their rhythm.

I did pick Contador as possibly the strongest right now but what is moreso the case is that a lot of riders are looking very evenly matched and that anyone who may or may not look stronger isn't based on much at all and can change quickly.
Contador is young too and only rare exceptional cases do very well very young in big tours but he isn't completely unproven and having a top 20 finish while working his ass off for Armstrong, sometimes being ordered by Bruynell to take a day off and finish way back, speak volumes.

[JaredL]

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I don't understand why a team like Astana doesn't let Kloden and Vino both go for GC; see who's got it in the Alps and then work for that one. Supposedly Kloden was the one who was hurt worse in their crashes but it certainly didn't show.

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They are really hoping that yesterday was just variance as far as Vinokourov is concerned. In their view Vinny is the stronger rider with the better chance. I think that's probably true. He was probably the most common pick to win the tour at the start and has looked stronger every day since the crash. For this reason they are going to have him go for it.

Because cycling is such a team sport, unless you have two guys that are absolute badasses then it is very unusual to have two guys each going for the GC. When this happens there are usually a lot of problems within the team. The last notable time was with Greg LeMond and Bernard Hinault in 1985 and 86. Even on teams where there are two or three reasonably equal in talent they will either designate one as the GC guy or go with whichever is riding the strongest early.

Looking at tomorrow's stage, if Vinokourov can hold on there are then 3 flat stages where he can continue to improve before the ITT. I think he's actually in pretty good shape and Valverde et al lost a big opportunity to possibly knock him and especially Kloden out of the race.

It's definitely great to see Mayo back riding well again.
It's a mystery what happened to him after looking like the best climber since Pantani and then just fading completely.
I don't buy the popular theory that he stopped using doping, but I think with him it's more of a case of resting on his laurels and not training hard enough for several years. Too much success too fast almost. Too easy.

He is notably slimmer this year I think.

No matter what, it's him and Rasmussen that I'm rooting for so I hope he can keep it up.

[gila]

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I really think Heras was as strong as Armstrong in a couple of those tours but was his teammate and wouldn't have been a GC threat anyway due to his terrible time trialing so he rode tempo and worked a lot more. He also had his training peak later so he would have been just getting into form for the tour to work for Lance and then peaking later for the Vuelta, which he dominated.

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I am not so sure about this, but I will give you, in at least one tour, it could be debatable. I do think, again in at least one tour, and possibly two, he WAS the second strongest. And, as you said, his training was more geared for a month or so later. Although, the year he left Lances team, I do think he was gearing his training toward the tour, and he couldn't touch Armstrong in that one.

Armstrong surely had one of the best teams ever though, in most of his tours. At least in a sense of the team all having one goal and working together. T-mobile had some great teams too, although they didn't know wtf they were doing.

I would say Astana, this year, as far a pure power, maybe has the best team of all time (lol, in the ten years I have been watching, that is). When the two biggest favorites to win the tour come from the same team, geez. Not to mention Kashechkin, and Savoldelli, who are great riders in their own right, and also both in the top 20 pre-race favorites to win it all.

[gila]

As a dark horse for the win, I am really liking Frank Schleck. He always seems to ride so smooth. Of course, the team dynamics would have to change for him.

[JaredL]

Gila,

I have a man crush on Heras so I'm probably overly biased. Certainly that one tour would have been a lot more interesting had he been on a different team, although again it would have been about the same in the GC because he is so much worse than Lance in the ITT.

I didn't watch back then as I was only 5 but the 1985 La Vie Claire team was amazing. They had Bernard Hinault who won, LeMond finished second, Steve Bauer finished 10th, Niki Ruttimann 13th, Dominique Arnaud 22nd, and a few lower placed finishers. Having your fifth best rider finish the tour 22nd position is pretty amazing not to mention going 1-2 on the podium.

edit: Also, the gap between LeMond and the third place guy was pretty reasonable at 2 minutes, 47 seconds. LeMond said after the tour that he would have won but he sat up on a stage when he was told, a lie apparently, that Hinault was just behind him when he was really a few minutes back. Not sure what to make of it as LeMond has shown himself to be an ass and say whatever would, by his logic, make him look better.

[ledders07]

tuesday's stage is unlikely to sort anything is it??? its a downhill finish??

its the pyrenees that will really decide i think.