Question on raising/"one chip rule"

[HOWMANY]

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It's a minraise. Everyone that says it is a call is wrong.

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If you wanted to call with red chips how many would you put out?

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I would say call and put out two. If I say call and throw in 2 red chips I have called. If I say call and throw in my sweatshirt I have called. If I say nothing and throw in 2 red chips I have raised. If I say nothing and throw in my sweatshirt I look like a retard but I have neither called nor raised. If I don't say what I'm doing then the chips I put into the pot do the speaking, in this case the chips clearly say raise.

[rageotones]

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i think it should be a raise. i think the oversize chip rule should only apply to one chip.

for the guy talking about the "last significant chip rule":

say a guy throws out 5 $1 chips, and then realizes he's out of white, so he tosses in a redbird. you'd say this is a call. but, if he puts them all out at the same time, i don't think anyone could argue this isn't a raise.

more than one chip should be a raise imo unless the person states otherwise.

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It's a call. It really is, everywhere. Honestly, I can't believe there's so much confusion and disagreement here! It's basically the rule that we all learned as kids for buying things with cash - toss enough coins in there to cover the price, then stop.

Anyone who thinks otherwise simply hasn't spent much time in B&M poker rooms. This situation comes up all day long, on every table every day. I suppose many of you folks are online players primarily.

It sounds complicated when it's written down, but it's obvious in real life. Again, it's the grammar school rule - the way we all learned to pay for our candy.

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i have played more hands online, but probably an equal # of hours of online vs. b&m. i have seen most things, but never this.

i guess i understand the reason for saying it's a call, but i also know that if i did this (not that i ever would), and someone told me it was a call, i think i'd have a very strong case for insisting it was a raise if that was my intention.

if you google "poker oversize chip rule," the first two entries talk about the rule in singular form. i think if you throw in more than one chip, it is your responsibility to state your intention to the dealer.

[mikech]

this is obviously a raise. let's review what happened:

the player did not put in one chip, nor an oversize chip. the player put TWO chips into the pot for an amount constituting a raise.

ok, do we all agree on the above? so what's the problem?

[pokerswami]

It's a call.

[Rick Nebiolo]

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Nope... again the dealer should not have to guess what the players intentions are, no matter what kind of color is in a players stack.

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So if I put out two chips and those two chips add up to a raise, then it's not a raise because it looks like a call?

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That is exactly right, if it looks like a call it is a call.

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Randy,

IMO the problem here is unclear wording in the most highly used/referenced rulebooks. For example, from the Commerce/Hollywood Park/Bicycle Club rulebook:

From the "Betting and Raising" Section

"If you put a single chip in the pot that is larger than the bet, but do not announce a raise, you are assumed to have only called. Example: In a $3-$6 game, one player opens for $3 and the next player puts a $25 chip in the pot without saying anything. The second player has merely called the $3 bet."

From the "No-Limit Rules" Section:

"A bet of a single chip or bill without comment is considered to be the full amount of the chip or bill allowed. However, a player acting on a previous bet with a larger denomination chip or bill is calling the previous bet unless this player makes a verbal declaration to raise the pot.

I took out the rule numbers because they differ a bit between clubs (but the wording is the same). Both passages make reference to a single chip. I recall this question being debated by various LA floor several times with equally experienced floor taking either side.

As mentioned elsewhere in the thread the rule really should be rewritten to provide clarity (indicating it's a call).


~ Rick


PS Sorry I haven't been posting lately. Been busy then my computer's motherboard blew up. Almost back up to speed didn't loss data but am running under Vista and installing new software. Posted the above quotes using OpenOffice Writer instead of MS Word (I had been using a very old version of MS Office not compatible with Vista). OpenOffice works good so far for $0 [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[Brettski]

When training poker room staff, I use the following way of explaining things. Let's use the OP's example: there's $6 out there, and the next player to act throws out 2 x $5 chips without indication of intent.

The first question we ask is, if I threw out one $5 chip, would that be enough to call? Answer: no.

Okay then, what if I threw out a second $5 chip on top? Is that now enough to call? Answer: yes. In this instance, the second $5 chip I've thrown out becomes the single oversized chip.

Let's take a slightly more complicated example. The game is 6/12 Limit Holdem. A player says "raise" and throws in 6 x $2 chips. The next player to act throws in 3 x $5 chips without saying anything.

First question: If I threw out one $5 chip, is that enough to call? No.
Second question: If I threw out two $5 chips, is that enough to call? No.
Third question: If I threw out three $5 chips, is that now enough to call. Yes.

I guess the next obvious question is: what if I threw out four $5 chips? Now we're in raise territory!

Hope this helps.

[Gonso]

Those thinking this is a raise are in for a rude surprise in a lot of houses, particularly in AC. You see this in 2/4 and 3/6 daily.

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Okay then, what if I threw out a second $5 chip on top? Is that now enough to call? Answer: yes. In this instance, the second $5 chip I've thrown out becomes the single oversized chip.

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This is correct, and as OP states it this is a also a call anywhere in AC. Super-super standard. I'll qualify that by saying I don't know about out west, but I'd be surprised if it were not the same.

Player A calls $3, Player B raises to $6. If player C throws out two red chips it's a call, not a raise - the same if he was using some oddball $10 chip. If C throws out a green it's a call.

However, if C throws out two green for $50, it's raised to $50. Or, if he comes forward with 3 red chips, it's raised to $15.

[bav]

I absolutely understand the confusion. The "one chip rule" is miserably confusingly worded and titled and makes it sound like anything that isn't one chip is a raise. And I've seen conflicting resolutions to this when it comes up at tables. USUALLY what I see is what Photoc describes or something close... the dealer or 6 players at the table all jump up and ask "is that a raise?" The player then clarifies. But that's BEGGING for angles. The player shouldn't get to decide after seeing people reach for chips or reach for their cards whether he's raising.

The whole point is we need to know at the outset. And anytime there can be such confusion, the default needs to be the least aggressive action wins out. Brettski did a good job of spelling it out step by step. It's *NOT* unclear or difficult--you know it when you see it and when 5 players all jump up at once and ask "is that a call or a raise" you know you've got that situation... if they have to ask, it's a call.

And whoever up there said "anyone with half a brain would realize that person is raising"... you are oh so very wrong. Probably at least every dozen or two hours of play I see this very situation come up and 90% of the time the intent is to call. When you look down and having nothing but red chips in front of you and are faced with a $6 bet, you just grab the two smallest denomination chips and put 'em out. You shouldn't have to be thinking "hmmm...THIS time I need to say 'call' cause otherwise the $10 is just barely a legal raise". All you should need to think is "one chip isn't enough to call, two chips is".

[Javanewt]

Thank you, Brettski. I hope everyone who thinks this is a raise reads your post and finally understands why it's a call.

I, too, cannot believe so many people think this is a raise. They must be strictly online players or have never seen this in a casino and are just guessing. I've seen it at Caesar's, IN, and at a few casinos in Vegas, and it is always a call.

[TMTTR]

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this is obviously a raise. let's review what happened:

the player did not put in one chip, nor an oversize chip. the player put TWO chips into the pot for an amount constituting a raise.

ok, do we all agree on the above? so what's the problem?

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Do we all agree there is no logic in this post?

The problem is you are 100% incorrect. (OK, given the debate here, maybe only 98.5% incorrect.) You are "that person" that thinks they understand the rule because the rule is called the "one chip rule" (or something like that). The fact is, if the last significant chip is necessary for a call and is also sufficient to constitute a raise, it is considered a call.

The person who brought up the silly example of someone throwing in five whites and then throwing in a red chip -- chips all go in together so this is clearly a raise. The player doesn't decide which chip is the last significant chip -- you start with the highest denomination and work your way down. If there are chips that would not be necessary for a call, then they must be intended to be used for a raise.