NBA Playoffs Thread

[Assani Fisher]

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Updated record: 33-26 with, 11-12 without.

So one set doesn't make any sense to you, so you look at another set that says something just as silly and you accept it?


[/ QUOTE ] The second set doesn't say something "just as silly." The first set suggests that they are actually better missing one of their starters...clearly that is wrong(or else the coaching staff is doing something wrong by starting that player). Clearly the Heat are not better without Shaq or Wade. When I looked at that, I concluded that there must be another factor at work. Thats what led me to the JWill stat.

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The year he arrived so did Peja, Webber, and Divac. Also, their two best seasons happened to year after he left.


[/ QUOTE ] I already admitted this.

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Even as you say you "realize" other people had a hand in this, you still say he "led" them. Yet it wasn't until his 3rd year that they went to the playoffs. And the year after he left the exact same thing happened as two years before: they won 49 games and then got swept in the playoffs.


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Hes the PG, which is the floor general. I use "led" just as I would use "led" with any QB in football. I think you're looking into things too much.

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Before he got to Miami they won 59 games and went to game 7 of the conference finals.


[/ QUOTE ] I know.






Basically I don't get what you guys are arguing. Someone said that other than Wade and Shaq "everyone else on the Heat blows." I disagreed with that and said that he was underrating JWill and that I think many people do. I'm not saying that JWill is a superstar by any means. I'm just saying that hes underrated- he does not "blow." Hes a solid starter in the league, he makes his teamates better, he doesn't turn over the ball, hes actually turned into a pretty good defender which is surprising, and hes a veteran. I'm not sure why the hate for him.

[bottomset]

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So one set doesn't make any sense to you, so you look at another set that says something just as silly and you accept it?

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SOP for assani

[Assani Fisher]

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So one set doesn't make any sense to you, so you look at another set that says something just as silly and you accept it?

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SOP for assani

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I have no idea what SOP is, but I honestly believe that most of you are smarter than this. Seriously, I don't mean that in an insulting way- I really do think highly of the intelligence here. But I can't believe that I actually have to spell this out for you all.......

If you look at one set of circumstances and arrive at a conclusion(the Heat are better with either Shaq or Wade hurt than they are with them both healthy) that you're 99% is bogus, then it might be a good idea to look at uncontrolled variables.

I did this, and I saw that Jason Williams also missed a lot of games this year, so perhaps he played in some of these games in which one of them were hurt and missed others, thus messing up those stats. I looked up his stats and arrived at the conclusion that the Heat were better with Williams than without him. Now to me, that is a reasonable conclusion.

[Pudge714]

Assani,
There is a difference between saying White Chocolate doesn't blow and that he is one of the most underrated players of his generation.

The information you cited is lacking some more information, which I am too lazy too look up.
How often did Shaq and Wade and others play when J-will was healthy?
How often did Shaq and Wade and others play when J-will was injured?
What opponents did they play?
Where they at home or on the road?
What were the scores of those games?

You never even acknowledged that the Kings improvement was mainly due to Webber, Divac and Peja.
I get the floor general analogy but a QB>PG.
You said that before he arrived Miami was a "decent" team a 59 win team that loses in the ECF because their best player got injured is >>>>>>>>>> decent.

[Degenerasian]

I have no hate for J-Will, I'm just saying that a PG who is a sub-par defender and who generally can't hit his jumpshots has no right to be called one of the most underrated players of our generation. But that's just me.

[FlyWf]

Stanard Operating Procedure. And the lesson to be learned from 7 and and 15 and 20 game samples is that small samples don't matter, not that Jason Williams is secretly the key player on Miami. Of course the Heat are better with Williams than without him, that's true of almost every player.

And this [censored] about AST/TO ratio is just terrible. You're using the typical sportswriter logic of deciding on your opinion beforehand and then digging up stats that support it afterwards. When I said Terrell Brandon was as good as Steve Nash, you immediately threw out Brandon's FG% as evidence that he wasn't any good. Yet now you're trumpeting the merits of a player whose has shot below 40% for his career. That year he lead the league in AST/TO ratio he shot.388 from the field!

[Assani Fisher]

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Assani,
There is a difference between saying White Chocolate doesn't blow and that he is one of the most underrated players of his generation.


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Fair point....maybe its just because I've come across a lot of people that seem to think he completely sucks lately that I'm pushing his cause so much right now. Honestly I just don't get the hate for this guy though. IMO he is the third cog behing Wade and Shaq. I think he has as much pure talent as anyone in the league, and I admire how his game has involved. I'll admit: I'm being a bit of a homer here, as I'm a fan of his. But I do think hes a very good player that would be a starter on many teams.

Its funny...hes one of those guys that I think was overrated at first, then people reacted to that, and then when he improved he never got the credit he deserved. Ironic, I guess.

[Jack of Arcades]

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The second set doesn't say something "just as silly." The first set suggests that they are actually better missing one of their starters...clearly that is wrong(or else the coaching staff is doing something wrong by starting that player). Clearly the Heat are not better without Shaq or Wade. When I looked at that, I concluded that there must be another factor at work. Thats what led me to the JWill stat.

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The second stat suggests that Jason Williams is the most important player on the Heat, wouldn't you say?

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The year he arrived so did Peja, Webber, and Divac. Also, their two best seasons happened to year after he left.

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I already admitted this.

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Then why are you saying "he does seem to help teams win"? In this way you are linking the turnaround of Sacramento, Memphis, and Heat ("turnaround" used tenuously) as points for Jason Williams.

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Hes the PG, which is the floor general. I use "led" just as I would use "led" with any QB in football. I think you're looking into things too much.

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So Smush Parker "led" the Lakers to the #7 seed in the playoffs? Because that statement is as absurd as Jason Williams "leading" Memphis to the 4 and 5 seeds.

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Before he got to Miami they won 59 games and went to game 7 of the conference finals.

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I know.

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Dude, no one's hating him. If you said:

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Hes a solid starter in the league, he makes his teamates better, he doesn't turn over the ball, hes actually turned into a pretty good defender which is surprising, and hes a veteran.

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There would be no problem, because everything you said here it's true.

However, you feel the need to use ridiculous logic that overstates your case. Your points were:

1. Heat w/Jason Williams: 27-17; Heat w/o Jason Williams: 10-14
2. Sacramento before Jason Williams sucked, Sacramento after Jason Williams made the playoffs.
3. Memphis before Jason Williams sucked. When he got there, he "led" them to two straight playoff appearances.
4. Heat before Jason Williams "decent." Heat after Jason Williams = Championship.

No matter how you couch the language around these points, they point to Jason Williams being a very good player. Furthermore, the language you use is misleading. Heat were "decent," Williams "led," etc.

All you had to say was "Jason Williams is pretty solid, he's 11/5 in 30 minutes this season and he's a decent 3-point threat." Instead you built a ridiculous case assembled on faulty logic and deceptive language.

[Assani Fisher]

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Dude, no one's hating him. If you said:

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Hes a solid starter in the league, he makes his teamates better, he doesn't turn over the ball, hes actually turned into a pretty good defender which is surprising, and hes a veteran.

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There would be no problem, because everything you said here it's true.


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Thats all I really was trying to say. I think that means that hes underrated since nearly everything I've been hearing lately is about how much he sucks.

I think you're looking too much into my points...I was never using those points to say that hes a great player. For example, I totally admitted that he wasn't the ONLY(or even the MAIN) reason for those teams' turnarounds. I was just using those to show that hes a solid good player.

Anyway, I think you and I are pretty much in agreement. Sorry if I was unclear and sparked an argument.

[teamdonkey]

Assani,

JWill is a horrible defensive liability, and doesn't exactly have Steve Nash type offense to make up for it. At best he's remarkably average.

Predictions!!

Detroit in 4
Cleveland in 5
Chicago in 7
Nets in 6 - Toronto has come to far too fast, they're overachieving now and it will catch up with them. NJ is the exact opposite.

Detroit over Chicago in 7.
Nets over Cleveland in 6 - No player in history could carry this Cavs team on its back very far. Lebron is unreal, but can only do so much.

Detroit over Nets in 5 - the real conference finals happen a round early in the East this year.


Mavs in 4 - they've been hearing for about a month how well a far, far worse Warriors team matches up with them. I think Avery WANTED Golden State in the first round. Good luck fellas... you're gonna need it.
Spurs, Suns in 4 or 5.
Rockets in 7 - great series that could go either way but in the end it means nothing, as the "winner" gets the chance to be humiliated by the Mavs on a national stage.

Mavs over Rockets in 5
Suns over Spurs in 7 - this and the Suns/Mavs series will be the most rediculously awesome things ever seen on television. Home team wins both series IMO.

Mavs over Suns in 7.


Finals: Mavs over Pistons in 6.