Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?

[Blarg]

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I am blessed to have such a relationship, and that is why I am taking such a radical attitude. Perhaps I am playing with semantics, as I will do things I'd rather not; but it is no sacrifice for me.
As I think about this problem some more, I see a similarity to a parent who happily puts a child through school expecting no return but the love of the moment. For our husband was there no return for him as it was going down; then why do it? Was it all based on expected future return?
Your point of view does seem more sensible, I just wonder if reason has any place in a loving relationship (a slight exaggeration only).

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I think that only a loving relationship could have brought this problem about in the first place. The husband went into debt, presumably quite a heck of a lot of it, out of love for his wife, respect for her abilities, and because he was thinking ahead of their future as a couple.

I don't think he would have put that kind of hope or effort in if he thought his wife were incapable, didn't love and care about her, and didn't think their relationship would last for a very, very long time. If sacrificing that much, and over the course of years, doesn't count as being a loving partner, the problem is that one of the partner's contributions are not being valued. Which strikes me as the opposite of a loving relationship.

[Blarg]

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This seems particularly hollow. He wants her to be an ambitious corporate lawyer. That's part of the issue - it sounds like his desire is to see money, not her. From what I've heard 80+ hours per week is no exaggeration here.

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This doesn't seem fair at all. None of this was sprung on her or happened without her consent; in fact they agreed on it as a couple and it was literally YEARS in coming. Money being involved is in no way damning here; it's central, not extraneous and selfishly brought in by one party to bully the other.





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We're not talking about a basketweaving class at the local community college that she's taking for fun. We're talking about 2-3 years and a buttload of money (I think the average is like $80k!)



Maybe it's the fact I plan on med school, but that just seems small to me. I understand that most people don't even make half that much in a year, but again this is a two-income couple (and she has a JD, she can't exactly be on the poverty line). They can't handle $80k in student loans?

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Well, for most people, 80k is indeed quite a big deal, two incomes or not. Even for some doctors! Doesn't seem in the slightest trivial or unremarkable to me.

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does homework, etc. This is similar to him taking the $80k and saying he's going to invest it in something for the couple's retirement, but instead she goes on an $80k shopping spree because that's what makes her happy.



It sounds more like she put it into a long-term low-yield plan when he expected her to play the market.


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What the heck? Play the market? He expected her word to be good. There was nothing whatsoever unexpected or related to gambling or speculation in any of this at all. That was extremely far off base.

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Also, I'm still of the belief that she's making a choice based mostly on fear. Katy's description of her makes me think she really lacks self confidence and is taking the easy way out. Perhaps if they talked this through and he showed his support for her and confidence in her, he could show her that she can do the tougher job. It might lead to a lot of good things for her beyond just career issues.



That doesn't sound unlikely, but I don't think it changes the nature of the situation much.

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Agreed.

[Blarg]

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Katy,
Sadly I have become an idealist; happily also a realist and because of my wife there is no conflict in these two. Shouldn't a marriage be a union without agreements? Can we replace the agreements with a joyful sharing? I guess I don't understand how the time they have shared so far is not the basis for an "agreement" to go on whatever they choose- if the relationship is healthy.
There is an O'Henry short story of a husband who sells his watch to buy combs for his wife, while she sells her hair to buy him a watch chain. Somehow these were still the perfect anniversary presents.

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That's because they were both doing the giving. The story would have really sucked if only one person did the giving.

[cgrohman]

1.) I am a law clerk. IF she works for a judge, it won;t be less hours but the job will be WAY more interesting than the first few years at a law firm.

2.) I personally find a lack of ambition in a woman VERY unattractive.

3.) That being said, its her choice of careers- she worked her ass off in law school and has the right to use her degreee as she pleases.

4.) That being said, if the husband worked extra hours/used a good portion of his income to pay for her school- he has a right to expect that she would take the higher paying job out of law school- buthe should have talked to her about this long before she graduated. To put this in persepctive, a government job usually starts at somewhere between $45-$55K/year. The top firms now pay $160K plus $10K signing bonus polus $10-$20K end of year bonus for their first years. Thats a lot of cash left on the table.

[katyseagull]

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That being said, its her choice of careers- she worked her ass off in law school and has the right to use her degreee as she pleases.


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Thank you for your feedback. This is how I feel also. But I was curious what the man's perspective was since I find that men and women look at things differently. I was sort of curious if they did not have a verbal contract... you know, that she would work for a corporate law firm when she got out. I mean she did state that she would.

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4.) To put this in persepctive, a government job usually starts at somewhere between $45-$55K/year. The top firms now pay $160K plus $10K signing bonus polus $10-$20K end of year bonus for their first years. Thats a lot of cash left on the table.

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the word is that she will be making <$42,000 at her new job. However, I still feel that it's up to her and that the husband needs to just keep his mouth shut. I realize that other people disagree with this.

[Blarg]

She probably should have kept her mouth shut instead of saying she was going to do something, and then renegging.

There's no real looking at things differently, or matters of the perspective of one sex compared to that of another. All this stuff is very clear.

[aheravi]

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This is going to sound crude, but I'll back it up with dollars if necessary.

They will find the disagreements over career decrease rapidly with an increase in fellatio.

I know it sounds crazy, but without knowing this man, I am willing to bet thousands of dollars that fellatio from his wife will fix virtually all complaints about her choice of careers.

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Reading between the lines: she's already blown it, so she might as well blow it.

[Six_of_One]

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the word is that she will be making <$42,000 at her new job. However, I still feel that it's up to her and that the husband needs to just keep his mouth shut. I realize that other people disagree with this.

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What's the point of spending 3 years and $80-100k just to get a job paying $42k? I mean, she could easily make more than that doing all sorts of things that don't require an advanced degree.

She has the right to work whatever job she wants, of course...but she has demonstrated (by initially saying she would take a higher-paying job, letting him work hard and go into debt to support her through school, then changing her mind) that her husband's feelings aren't very important to her. It's up to him to decide how much that bothers him (it would bother me a lot, in the same situation).

[MrMon]

I never got back to this like I promised, but after reading through it a lot of the points I had have been covered. However, I'll try and add a new perspective that hasn't been covered.

As many of you may know, my wife is an attorney, a partner in a 300+ attorney Midwest firm. We have two kids. But we didn't start this way. When we met, my wife was in the new attorney in her first year of practice, in the process of getting a divorce, and she had a two-year old daughter. I earned more than she did, but due to an explosion of law salaries and the Internet bubble collapse, that was soon to change. Along the way, we got married, had a child together, her career started to take off, and mine collapsed completely. At some point along the way, we decided that it would be best to concentrate on her career while I took care of things at home and I tried to get into real estate, so I would have flexible enough in hours to look after all things kid-related while she could work the hours needed to progress in her career. And since this is the Midwest, not NY, we're not talking about 2500-3000 hour billable, we're talking about 1800-1900 hour billable, but that still requires some time commitment and the ability to stay late and work weekends. Fortunately, she rarely has to travel. After seven long years, she made partner, which is not all it's cracked up to be, the hour demands are still there, but it's way better than being an associate. And there is still a higher level, equity partner, which is where all the real money is, and she's determined to get there.

Okay, that's the background, somewhat similiar to the OP, not quite, but close enough. And what's my wife's perspective on all this? She despises the sort of woman in the OP. She see's it all the time. The firm hires some bright new female associate, and it's only a matter of time until they quit or go part time, usually related to the issue of children. How they do that is the question, sometimes, they've earned the right to do it, but often, the women in question are just spoiled and lazy. They got to law school, married their trophy husband, and now will proceed to terrorized the local school association with their frustrated career ambitions.

From my wife's perspective, it's not the husband who has the right to ask her to do more, it's women everywhere. The lawyer in question is just another selfish bitch who took a rare place in law school from someone who would have done something with it, but instead squanders the opportunity and makes it tougher for women who want to do more with their degrees. My wife can't tell you how many times the unansked question of her is, "How long until you quit or go part-time?". That is a tremendous career hindrence, and considering she's the ONLY full time partner with children in her office (there are many offices), it's not a question that's asked with any malice, the men just expect the other shoe to drop with all women with good reason. Women are not to be taken seriously, they'll quit eventually, the real lawyers are all men. Fighting that perspective is a full time job, one that other women do not help with.

The bottom line, according to my wife, is this. You sign up for the lawyer route, become one. If you're not going to take this seriously, quit, now, before you do more harm. If you hate law, quit, that's fine. Being out of the profession completely isn't great, but it does less harm than limping along. But if you do well, you have a responsibility to yourself and your female peers to pursue it. No, you don't have to go to some sweatshop and grind it out for top dollar, but there are good playing jobs that have reasonable hours that are respectable work. Or there are true public service jobs like public defender or prosecutor that at least have some respect attached to them, even if they don't have dollars. But to take a top performer and take a second rate job for minimal dollars because you don't want to work. Sorry, that's bush league and you should have dropped out of law school and given the spot to someone more worthy.

No, you don't have to do it forever, but you need to put some years into the profession at a level you are capable of before you earn the right to mommy track it or switch or slow down or even quit. It's one thing to realize you need to make a switch in your life, it's another to not even try. Yes, this is harsh, but when at least 50% of women going through law school seems to take the same route and waste everyone's time, making it very tough for the one's who do take it seriously, there is a problem.

Now, if the position in question is a clerkship with a judge that can lead to something better, that's another case entirely. But the above still applies. And I suspect that's not the case here, but rather the lazy woman syndrome my wife encounters so often. If a man did the same thing, we'd have no respect for him, why do we find it acceptible in women?

[Blarg]

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the word is that she will be making <$42,000 at her new job. However, I still feel that it's up to her and that the husband needs to just keep his mouth shut. I realize that other people disagree with this.

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What's the point of spending 3 years and $80-100k just to get a job paying $42k? I mean, she could easily make more than that doing all sorts of things that don't require an advanced degree.

She has the right to work whatever job she wants, of course...but she has demonstrated (by initially saying she would take a higher-paying job, letting him work hard and go into debt to support her through school, then changing her mind) that her husband's feelings aren't very important to her. It's up to him to decide how much that bothers him (it would bother me a lot, in the same situation).

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It would bother me too. There is often a double standard when it comes to men and women; women's feelings are allowed and even celebrated or counted as some sort of mystical insight, whereas men are not supposed to have any, or all theirs are to be directed to over-finessing every tiniest worry about their partner. Parity is often talked about as a goal, but as long as either partner is taken for granted, equality will stay a buzzword.