Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown hand?

[Assani Fisher]

good post. Thanks for the thoughts.

[AKQJ10]

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Do you guys think it is bad etiquette to make your opponent show first if you called his all in bet with the nuts?

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No. The rule is that the bettor shows. I probably wouldn't make a very big deal if he put up resistance, though, because with the nuts that does look a little obnoxious and wastes time.

My SOP is to say, "I called you," or some such and wait for him to table his hand.

[RR]

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It just seems unfair that one opponent should have to give away info while the other doesn't.


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Nobody is required to give away information at the showdown. Anyone that wants to throw their hand in the muck is permitted to do so.

[redfisher]

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insightful post..thanks. I guess it still doesn't answer my question of 'why' though?

Furthermore since so many players are coming up online like me, do you think that the rule might change in live play one day?(assuming of course online poker stays legal and popular).

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I think it will either change to match the online rule in a few years or be eliminated entirely. The rule isn't useful to prevent collusion by even minimally competent cheaters. As younger players displace the old guard, they're going to want the live games to run like online games.

All the quite logical reasons why you don't want to impose the rule will still be valid. Even if you are allowed to use this rule at any time, you probably shouldn't. Nobody can tell when you're looking them up online, it's obvious live.

[MrFizzbin]

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If you have to ask this question you are a douchebag

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So because I came up playing internet poker instead of live poker and am used to those rules I am a douchebag?

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No I believe he's calling me a douchebag for what I posted, but I pretty much ignore troll posts.....

[Nuevo99]

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Has anyone here ever caught a colluder by asking to see the hand? And if not, then either you shouldn't be able to ask at all or we should consider it perfectly fine etiquette to ask. JMHO.

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I disagree. If it's not useful to detect colluders then they should just do away with that rule all together, not just allow people to invoke it just because you want to see someones hands that they have mucked.

Maybe saying it's tradition or whatever is not a good excuse, but consider this:

There are rules that if you bet and I call, you have to show first and I can muck if I lost the hand. That's part of the game, I know it's not always that apparent in online poker (especially if you are running PokerTracker with PokerAce or some sort of program like that).

It's not tradition, or "the way it's always been done", for live players that is part of the game.

But then they created the IWTSTH hand rule, and in online poker they started showing all hands at showdown (in the logs usually, not out in the open). But it's not there for just seeing someone else's hand "because you want to", in fact I know some dealers at my casino wont even let you do it if you state it the wrong way like that. (if you give no reason they turn them over)

If you do it over and over again, hopefully a lot of dealers wont do it as well. I get the sense at mine that if someone does it more than once per dealer they may not do it (because it's clear it's not to just ward off cheating).

So anyway for as many of you that hold the opinion that you should be able to see every single hand that you want, there are probally a huge majority that want to adhear to the rules and be able to muck their losing hands. If there wasnt, you'd see the rule invoked every single hand.

Poker might be a game of information, but it's a game of concealing information as well. Using the IWTSTH rule just takes away from some of the concealing part.

(I myself dont want people invoking it on me, so I would never invoke it on someone else, except for maybe in the case where players are the BETTOR and they dont show their hand in order (usually Internet players))

I do one thing that helps ward off the IWTSTH rule a little bit at least... When it's my turn to show my hand, I make sure that I show it whatever it is. If you adhear to the betting order and people see you show some hands, they are more likely to let you muck more hands. But the people that will bet and then sit there and try to wait for someone else flip over the cards first usually get the rule invoked on them more often (because you never see their cards)

[AKQJ10]

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But the people that will bet and then sit there and try to wait for someone else flip over the cards first usually get the rule invoked on them more often (because you never see their cards)


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As a purely EV thing, I wonder if making compulsive bluffers show even IN TURN is bad because you're dissuading them from bluffing in the future. A few times I've thought that might be the case.

Incidentally, a decent floor/dealer tandem won't let people ask to see cards all day, and an extraordinarily good one won't let them do so at all out of curiosity. As stated above, it's not tradition or custom -- it's enforcing a rule for the purpose intended instead of letting the side effect take over.

But yeah, i'm rather sick of IWTSTH.

[Nuevo99]

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As a purely EV thing, I wonder if making compulsive bluffers show even IN TURN is bad because you're dissuading them from bluffing in the future. A few times I've thought that might be the case.


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That's probally a good point. Especially if they are a habitual bluffer.

I think it's more annoying if they are at least playing somewhat reasonable, especially in the first few rounds with them when you arent really sure if they are just getting a good run of cards in the short term, or do they actually raise every single hand.

In that case I think being able to see their cards (in turn or out of turn) is +EV, because you can figure them out. (not saying it's right though)

For the raise-tard or the bluff happy nut job, you are probally right though because there is no value in knowing what they have since they play almost any hand the same way. A lot of times I could care less what those guys have because they are so predictably random.

Not showing your hand when it's your turn only happens in my casino a lot though because the dealers dont enforce order. I think if they pointed to the first guy and told him to flip it over or muck, then the next guy, then the next guy, it wouldnt be that bad (would it?). They do it for the action parts of the hand, so why cant do it for the showdown as well?

But instead they tend to just wait for a winner to pop up, and sometimes you just get 3 people staring at each other waiting to see who is going to show first. (I think that's just as bad as having the IWTSTH hand invoked myself)

[Nuevo99]

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If you have to ask this question you are a douchebag

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So because I came up playing internet poker instead of live poker and am used to those rules I am a douchebag?

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Actually the "rules" are not actually any diffrent in online poker, you just arent as aware of them.

Ive played tons of Internet poker and I dont know of any sites that dont show the hands in order, and allow you to muck the losing hand (if you dont have to show first that is)

The diffrence is the computer is doing it for you, so to call it a "rule" is sort of trivial.

Usually you can see all hands at showdown in the log, or if you have a program that shows them on the screen, but that's for the same reason as the IWTSTH rule, it's to prevent collusion. Since so many people have programs that easily display this information, (or the site has an easily readable log) there really isnt any concept of whether it's unethical or not to look at them.

I think it's just an acceptable part of the game that you do look at them, because it's likely everyone else is looking at them as well. You dont have to ask, and nobody knows if you are looking or not. (I noticed a lot of players who werent even aware that they could look in the log and see everyones showdown hand)

It's not the same in a live game. People can muck their hand and that information is not just readily available to you. You have to ask to see it, and for the person who just mucked their hand you are being just plain rude. (because if they wanted you to know what they had, they wouldnt of mucked...)

Also a BIG diffrence is when you invoke it in a live game, you are letting EVERYONE see what the person had, which makes it even more ruder for them (they mucked the hand, certainly they didnt want everyone to see it).

When you see what they had online, you are the only one taking the action to look up that information (or it's showing up on your screen), which is not as harmful as showing everyone.

So again it's not a rule diffrence in online, it's really just a limitation of how online works versus live play.

[AKQJ10]

Agreed 100% -- the dealers should be prompting a showdown in turn. This deadlock is pretty irritating, and in a time-charged $1-2 NL game even moreso.