just shoot me now

[Buffsta8]

Victor,

I didn't. In the scenario listed and in games where the sb re raises with a lot more frequency and bb defends well then trimming back the weaker hands that you open from the button makes sense. Problem is in the game listed unticking auto post blind and leaving the game also makes sense. If the players don't defend their blinds properly or have large weaknesses in their post flop play which you can greatly exploit especially with position you should probably open as many hands as possible on the button and I think this falls into that category. I checked my pt stats and I show a profit with Q6s and Q5s (although the latter is at 5/T and lower) on the button and while its a small sample size I like to get involved in as many situations as I can on the button. Pokerbob's point was with an unknown bb we should probably fold this hand but player knowledge is probably more important with weak aces and small pocket pairs ie hands that can legitimately make a showdown without improvement and getting post flop play correct with these holdings is quite difficult and often relies on specific player reads and the ability to correctly pick off our opponents bluffs.

I understand my post may have come off a little arrogant saying irrespective of what you say im playing it anyway but what I really meant was what i've said above.

If a hand can turn a profit on the button and I think Q6s can in the games I choose to play, I'm running it.

[Victor]

the point is, these hands (Q6s and Q5s), are not the issue. of course i would play them and i said so. we stopped arguing about q6s long ago. go back and read the thread.

question is, do you open your range on the button when its 3handed more so than 6handed? is so, why? and how much?

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
the point is, these hands (Q6s and Q5s), are not the issue. of course i would play them and i said so. we stopped arguing about q6s long ago. go back and read the thread.

question is, do you open your range on the button when its 3handed more so than 6handed? is so, why? and how much?

[/ QUOTE ]

victor,
i'm pretty sure my range opens up a ton, but imo soooooo much has to do with the flow of the game, i.e. what has happened in the previous few hands?, how is everyone running?, is anyone on tilt or close?, what is my image like?, etc. i think a big part of playing super short is pounding on people until they have no idea what you have ever. when this happens, it is very very hard for them to play correctly against you. frustration sets in, and then you have them.

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't think it is when we don't know anything about the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a hand like Q6s is a hand that u should want to play 3way, ur u should strongly think about sitting out. With a fairly LAG SB and unknown BB and a rake killing us I would guess we should sit out here.

I like the turnraise. If he is anywhere near a decent SH player he would normally attack if he flopped Ts here, giving u a cheap turn when he is out of position makes little sense.

If this was SB I would be a bit more afraid of anything decent since he paid more preflop (not sure what, but a coldcalling SB suddenly waking up on turn is often trouble), but now he is BB calling preflop 3way, he could have just about any2.

By the way, call river. Im not a big fan of calling for information, but here I would call even if it was slightly -EV.

[Victor]

"i'm pretty sure my range opens up a ton, but imo soooooo much has to do with the flow of the game, i.e. what has happened in the previous few hands?,"

pbob, it seems you are saying it you use a frequency approach. so you open your range up, depending on recent events and not the hand you have?

say, you have folded the last 4 times on the button, now you raise regardless?

or, say you have destroyed the other 2 guys for the last couple hands, now you raise regardless?

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
"i'm pretty sure my range opens up a ton, but imo soooooo much has to do with the flow of the game, i.e. what has happened in the previous few hands?,"

pbob, it seems you are saying it you use a frequency approach. so you open your range up, depending on recent events and not the hand you have?

say, you have folded the last 4 times on the button, now you raise regardless?

or, say you have destroyed the other 2 guys for the last couple hands, now you raise regardless?

[/ QUOTE ]

well, there are some hands where obviously we are raising. i guess i can't put my finger on it exactly, other than to say i often play on "feel" with other hands. somtimes i fold hands like 54s, sometimes i raise. sorry, i can't really give you a better explanation than that. i can say definitively that my range tightens up when I am not sure who i am dealing with, although a few orbits usually gives me much of the info i need.

[Victor]

"although a few orbits usually gives me much of the info i need. "

so after a few orbits you raise more? or less? what criteria affects this?

[iggymcfly]

It sounds to me like a lot of people fail to maximize their EV in ring games by playing too tight on the button, and don't realize how significant of a mistake this is until they play short-handed.

If it folds around to me in a ring game where the blinds play reasonably tight, I'm open-raising Q6s, Q5s, 87o, and lots of other marginal hands all day long.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]

This has to be wrong because consider this: let's say you could make a deal with your opponents, they will never fold preflop and you will never fold preflop on the button. This would be a great deal because you are guaranteed to be in a breakeven situation except for the fact that you have the best position every hand. It's possible you might do better by finding some hands to fold on the button but then they might not live up to their end of the deal (adjusting to you) and then you might find yourself in a worse situation where they play more correctly preflop against you because they realize you are playing tighter than they are so they change that.

Also, what if the SB always folded and the BB always called (this is more realistic than the other example) now you are playing a breakeven situation against the BB except you have position AND a dead SB in the pot.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

That point doesn't really hold water because the bottom whatever % of the hands you'd be raising on the button in that situation would be unprofitable. We're trying to figure out where the borderline should be in a 3 handed game.

If you're playing against two blinds who are playing a strategy that they will never fold preflop to your button raise, then our best hands gain a lot of value. We expect to make a lot more money with our premium hands, which is great. however, with our marginal hands, we definitely lose value, because our opponents will rarely be making FTOP mistakes by calling with trash when we have a hand like Q6s ourselves.

Let me compare two situations. You are in a 6 handed game and it's folded to you on the button, and the SB has a FSBtS of 80, and the big blind has a FBBtS of 40. We win the blinds without a fight in this scenario 32% of the time. It becomes pretty hard to find hands that aren't profitable given those assumptions.

Now imagine your 3 handed game where this time the SB folds 50% and the BB folds just 20%. Now we win the blinds only 10%, and it becomes much harder to turn a profit with our marginal hands. The strategy adjustment we need to make is folding more hands on the button than in the previous example.

Sorry this post is long and redundant and ignores metagame considerations.

[Guruman]

[ QUOTE ]

Now imagine your 3 handed game where this time the SB folds 50% and the BB folds just 20%. Now we win the blinds only 10%, and it becomes much harder to turn a profit with our marginal hands. The strategy adjustment we need to make is folding more hands on the button than in the previous example.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd still disagree here. while its true that we'd less money preflop, that says nothing about our chances postflop.

a further illustration of your example:

lets say the sb and the bb have made the threehanded adjustment of defending 50 and 80% respectively, but they both decide to play fit or fold postflop. Its still incredibly difficult to find hands that are unprofitable to raise from the button because we'll win outright 10%, and win on the flop [in an inflated pot] an additional percentage of the time when a defender misses and folds to a cont bet. In fact, this could end up being a more profitable situation than the pure preflop steal ones, depending on exactly how weak/tight our opponents turn out to be.