how to play LA maniac lucky idiot?

[adanthar]

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I was sitting at a tournament (I was out of the hand) but here is what happened. It was late in the tourney, blinds were very high, UTG+1 limps in, UTG+3 calls, small blind completes the blind, and BB checks. Flop came Jd 9s 9d. Small blind checked, BB checked, UTG+1 went all-in, UTG+2 called, SB called, and BB called too. SB had 96, BB had 2 diamonds, UTG+1 had AA, UTG+3 had QQ. The turn was Js, and the river was Qd. Here every one made a hand, SB made 9's full of J's, BB made a flush, UTG+3 made the best hand Q's full of J's, but poor AA was left with just two pair.

So, why would you want to be against 4 other opponents with AA??

I was sitting at a tournament (I was out of the hand) but here is what happened. It was late in the tourney, blinds were very high, UTG+1 limps in, UTG+3 calls, small blind completes the blind, and BB checks. Flop came Jd 9s 9d. Small blind checked, BB checked, UTG+1 went all-in, UTG+2 called, SB called, and BB called too. SB had 96, BB had 2 diamonds, UTG+1 had AA, UTG+3 had QQ. The turn was Js, and the river was Qd. Here every one made a hand, SB made 9's full of J's, BB made a flush, UTG+3 made the best hand Q's full of J's, but poor AA was left with just two pair.

So, why would you want to be against 4 other opponents with AA??

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lol donkaments

[Bad Lobster]

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Hi everyone,

[describes loose-aggressive style...]

One thing I don’t like about tight players is that you can read them like a book. Here is an example...
I hold 72 off, everyone folds to me on the button, I raise 3 times BB, get re-raised by the BB 2.5 times, I call and the flop comes 2 3 7. The BB comes out firing with a slight overbet. What does this tell me??? From the preflop action and now, I know what he is holding – TT, JJ, QQ, KK, or AA, however, his most likely holding is QQ-AA. I know that so far I have him beat, BUT, there are two more cards to come and my two pair can get counterfeited, so, I just call instead of reraising and letting the possible unfortunate turn or river to screw me. The Turn comes 8, and the BB comes firing with a slight overbet again. I call and the river is a 10. The BB checks and I go all-in. I get called and paid off. And then I get to hear – “you are a lucky idiot” how do you play that crap, you are a looser, and ETC.

Has anyone learned a lesson here???

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No...I'm still confused. Here are two questions about this situation;

<ul type="square">[*] How would YOU play this hand against yourself if the situation were reversed...you're the guy holding the big overpair? I see your point, but I don't really see NOT doing the same as this guy did: betting on each round when apparently safe cards come? I guess the question could be rephrased: how big does that all-in move have to be to scare you off your hand?

[*] How big a stack relative to bet sizes do you need for a play like this to be worthwhile in the first place? That crazy raise you started off with pays off so rarely, I'd think you would need for both players to start with about 100x as much as that first bet; otherwise you couldn't make enough on the big plays to cover the cost of the losers.[/list]
I like the idea of playing this way in principle, but when I'm at the casino it doesn't seem to work out too well unless I already have a very big stack. If I buy in for $100 and make a few $15-20 raises, I only have to lose five or six times to eat up my whole stack. Do you always go in planning to make lots of rebuys?

[Bad Lobster]

[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]Don't take the name-calling seriously--remember there are still hundreds of forum members who didn't call you an idiot. The rule on the Internet is that a discussion thread is dead when someone calls someone else a Nazi--mere "idiot" is just SOP.


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The reason why I said that going to a showdown with 4 other players with AA is not good, is that you will not be against an average hand against which AA does pretty good. Most likely, you will be against other 4 strong hands: pairs or two suited high cards. No one will put all his money in the pot with J9 off. Therfore, your chances of winning against other 4 players are not that great and pot odds, IMO, don't justify this call.


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At first glance, this seems dumb--pocket aces is a favorite against any size field and should return a positive EV in any circumstances. After all, you're starting ahead and you have as much chance to improve as anyone else.

But then I realized there's a situation when that might not be the case--that's when the other two aces are already out. Even then I'm not sure. Does anyone think that, even when several tight players go all-in, it's safe to assume the aces are out?[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

If the aces ARE out, there's a small chance that one of the opponents has pocket aces too, in which case you're stuffed--you can't improve and you're playing for half the pot. If two other players have one ace each, you can't improve but on the other hand you have those two dominated. Does someone here have the tools to tell me whether that improves or hurts your expectation? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]



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Also, why would you want to see a variance in your roll when you can just wait for the next hand and continue to build your stack slowly but surely?


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I don't see this at all. Unless it's a tournament or you're playing with the rent money, you can always buy more chips, right? Risking your money at a positive expectation should always be a good idea.

[SixForty]

Hey xVICTORx,

Just wanted to respond to two things you said.

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Fifth, the skill of poker lies in putting your money with the best of it,

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So - you don't think AA preflop has the best of it against 4 other hands?

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The reason why I said that going to a showdown with 4 other players with AA is not good, is that you will not be against an average hand against which AA does pretty good. Most likely, you will be against other 4 strong hands: pairs or two suited high cards. No one will put all his money in the pot with J9 off. Therfore, your chances of winning against other 4 players are not that great and pot odds, IMO, don't justify this call.

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Just so you know, when you have AA preflop, it doesn't really matter than much whether someone else is pushing with good cards or not.

If someone else has KK, you are about 82% to beat him. If they have KQs, you are about 83% to beat him.

But if he pushes with J9o (the hand you use as your example) then guess what - you are still about 83% to beat him.

If you have AA, then it doesn't matter what the other guy has. You are still a huge favourite. And against 4 or 5 or 6 other players, you are getting a huge overlay in terms of odds. Even in worst case scenarios, you are still only about a 40% favourite. But you're getting 4 or 5 or 6 to 1 on your money.

If someone gives me 4 to 1 on my money when I'm a 40% favourite, that's effectively doubling my money. I'll take that bet every time.

[SixForty]

Hey xVICTORx,

If you still visit this thread, I've got a question for you. A hypothetical situation. You're playing in a $1/$2 no-limit game, max buy in is $100. Since this is the very first hand at a new table, everybody at the table has exactly $100 in front of them.

You're on the button. 2 players limp in front of you, and you decide to limp in with the 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. The small blind completes and the big blind checks. There's $10 in the pot. The flop comes an absolute perfect 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], flopping you the nuts. Everybody checks to you, and you decide to slowplay and just check it through (ignore for now whether or not this is a good move - just play along).

The turn is the seemingly innocent 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. You still have the nuts. Now the small blind leads off pushing all-in, $98. The big blind pushes all in, also for $98. The two limpers now both push all in for $98 also. So 4 players in front of you have pushed all in, and you have the nuts.

Now, through some weird twist of fate, they all decide to flip their hands face up. (Let's pretend that they forgot you were in the hand, and they didn't do it intentionally) The small blind shows 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for top set. The big blind decided to call him with the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for a nut flush draw. The first limper called with the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] for the other nut flush draw. And the other limper shows J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for a nut straight draw.

You still hold the nuts, and no one else does.

Do you call?

[xVICTORx]

To answer Bad Lobster's question about how I would play the hand out of position with AA:

I know that a person in position can make a raise with anything, so, I will make my reraise high: not two times more, but 3-3.5, or even 4 times more (eg. if we are playing $1/$2 NL, and the button raised to 8, then I would reraise to 30 or more) By this, you are making it extremely expensive for them to play a marginal hand even in position, and the hand that will call this reraise will be either any pocket pair, AX where x is high, or two suited or unsuited face cards. If the button calls your bet, on the flop you can make a half pot bet to get more info about your opponents hand. Your reraise pre-flop was very high and should've only invited made hands like high pocket pairs. See, if I raised with 72off on the button and got reraised extremely high by the SB, then it would be a clear fold for me. But if I was holding AQ or AK, or a high pocket pair, then I would probably call. And these are the hands that you want to play against when you are holding AA. You are a HUGE favorite in these situations and it will be easy money most of the time. You don't want to raise just a little and let me see the flop and then make an all-in bet at me when you are behind (because you did not get enough info from your bets) and loose your stack to a very poor hand. I make money on players that make mistakes and I try not to make mistakes so that I don't loose alot.

Now, lets get back to the AA against 4 opponents scenario. I know that AA is the best hand and I know what statistics say: AA holds better than any other hand out there. But, AA is the best hand to hold when you are against 1 or 2 opponents who hold AK and KK, or any other pocket pair. However, the more opponents the lesser your chance of winning, and therefore, you are risking your current stack.

Now, the way I play is that I play lots of hands from late position (any connected cards, any connected suited cards, pocket pairs, Ax, 2 face cards and so forth). I play at short handed tables and I always raise when I enter the pot. I don't check to see if anyone made a hand, I bet to see if anyone has something. When I bet, I make probe bets that are usually around half the pot. For example, I raised from late position 4 times BB, then follow up with a bet of 6 times BB (at $1/$2 I'll raise to 8, and then will bet 12 on the flop). Most of the time I will pickup the pot right there. Sometimes, I'll get reraised and will fold. Sometimes, I'll get called, but that will not stop me - I will bet 1/3 -1/2 pot bet on the turn and will pickup the pot right there. Sometimes, I'll make a straight or a flush, or a boat, or another very strong hand, and will make higher bets or an all-in bets which are usually called, because my opponents are getting frustrated because I pickup lots of pots, but those are huge errors on their part. And this is how I make money at the tables. I used to find myself losing focus sometimes when I saw AA and bet and get reraised, and then I reraised, and get reraised again, and then I'd loose my stack to a set. This is why I hate this freaking hand. So, today, if I hold AA and two or 3 opponents saw the flop, I'll make my bet regardless of the flop, but if the action starts to heat up, I'll throw them away.

I don't like to see variance in my bankroll. I figured out how to make money slowly, but surely and I like to keep it this way, and that is why I would not put all my money in the pot with AA against 4 opponents, whose holdings are probably strong too.

[SixForty]

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I don't like to see variance in my bankroll. I figured out how to make money slowly, but surely and I like to keep it this way, and that is why I would not put all my money in the pot with AA against 4 opponents, whose holdings are probably strong too.

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So you don't realize that NOTHING is really strong against AA preflop? Not to mention that if everyone is playing strong hands, they probably hold each other's out?

And since you don't like variance, does that mean that you would fold the nut straight on the turn in the example that I gave you above? Cause I'd really love to know the answer to that.

[JussiUt]

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I don't like to see variance in my bankroll. I figured out how to make money slowly, but surely and I like to keep it this way, and that is why I would not put all my money in the pot with AA against 4 opponents, whose holdings are probably strong too.

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You hate money then. If you can't stand variance then you don't have COMPLETE UNDERSTANDING OF THE GAME. In other words, you don't have the balls to see your AA get cracked and lose your buy-in.

[Mike]

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You hate money then. If you can't stand variance then you don't have COMPLETE UNDERSTANDING OF THE GAME. In other words, you don't have the balls to see your AA get cracked and lose your buy-in.

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Give it a rest! Why aren't YOU playing in the big game?

A complete understanding of the game may mean not being so dimwitted to put yourself in a position to lose your buyin and your profit by going all in preflop when you are gambling in a card game where the river determines who wins the hand and the probability of the best preflop hand losing on the river goes up with each player entering the pot.

[JussiUt]

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You hate money then. If you can't stand variance then you don't have COMPLETE UNDERSTANDING OF THE GAME. In other words, you don't have the balls to see your AA get cracked and lose your buy-in.

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Give it a rest! Why aren't YOU playing in the big game?

A complete understanding of the game may mean not being so dimwitted to put yourself in a position to lose your buyin and your profit by going all in preflop when you are gambling in a card game where the river determines who wins the hand and the probability of the best preflop hand losing on the river goes up with each player entering the pot.

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Who's said anything about playing in a big game? You should play in a game for which you have enough dough. Don't get your point.

Sure, if you're extremely deepstacked and you're up against an even bigger stack and you risk losing all of your winnings from the last eight hours then it might be a good option to fold those aces for psychological reasons. However, that kind of a situation is extremely rare and usually you are such a favourite to win a lot of money with those aces that it's foolish to fold them. If you don't have the nerve to gamble, fine, but then don't come bragging that you have a deep understanding of the game or whatever the OP said because clearly you don't have the balls to play the most profitable poker possible.

And we're talking about cash games here, not tournaments.