Question on a ruling in my WSOP (#8) event - Page 6

JohnnyFX · #51 07-05-2006, 07:43 PM

Like everyone with a conscience and a knowledge of poker has said, you were wrong to take the pot when you knew your hand was not the winner.

And I'm pretty sure you know it.

WarDekar · #52 07-05-2006, 07:47 PM

Well we'll have to agree to disagree, because I don't "know" that I was wrong, in fact I think I did exactly what I should have.

And you are also wrong in that "everyone with a conscience and a knowledge of poker has said, you were wrong to take the pot..." because there are quite a few (probably about an equal number) saying that I did nothing wrong. I suppose you could argue they (and I) don't have a conscience, but then again I'm sure none of us care what you think of us.

yaaaflow · #53 07-05-2006, 07:47 PM

Ethics question:

I had this come up during a cashgame. Game is crazy pineapple, each player has 3 cards, it is played just like holdem, except one card is discarded after the betting round on the flop. The dealer is to make sure each player discards, but players are also responsible for their own cards. I'm in a pot with an old man who has failed to discard or discarded slowly several times previously.

On a flop of KJ4 all clubs, I hold KJx and keep the top 2 pair. There is betting through to the river, when my opponent reveals his hand of Q93, all clubs - he did not discard, but flopped a flush regardless of the cards he kept.

Dealer declares my opponents hand dead.

Should I a) give my opponent the whole pot b) give him half the pot c) give him back the money he invested in the pot or d) keep it all?

uphigh_downlow · #54 07-05-2006, 07:51 PM

I think this is a highly controversial topic.

recreating a hand after there is no evidence to verify it except the testimony of a few that were watching, is a dangerous precedent.

As far as OP's actions are concerned, I find them totally honorable. He doesnt have any moral obligations to turn over half the pot to someone who is making a mistake. Focus , concentration and reading your own hand, are important parts of the game, and if someone makes a mistake, they have to pay for it.

The OP while in aposition to make a stink about it, did not do anything of the sort. he simply acknowledged the mistake, and split up the pot without fuss. Kudos for that.

Well Played Sir!!

Richard Tanner · #55 07-05-2006, 07:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well we'll have to agree to disagree, because I don't "know" that I was wrong, in fact I think I did exactly what I should have.

And you are also wrong in that "everyone with a conscience and a knowledge of poker has said, you were wrong to take the pot..." because there are quite a few (probably about an equal number) saying that I did nothing wrong. I suppose you could argue they (and I) don't have a conscience, but then again I'm sure none of us care what you think of us.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt it's an equal number, and I would further guess that if we were to poll all the pro players that play here, it would be 100% you were incorrect (give or take 1).

The fact is it's cards speak, and once the cards are tabled it's every single persons responsibility at the table to ensure the right player gets the pot, simple as that. Anything else is an attempt at an angle shoot and is wrong.
It's not a matter of anything but integrity. Is the other guy a [censored], of course. Will he lose in time, of course (although Lawson won so who knows). But when he loses it will be because he lacked the skill (reading hands not withsanding) not because people were silent when he rightfully won a pot.

Edit: The way you handled the situation when the TD came over is admirable, but it never should've come to that.

Cody

CardSharpCook · #56 07-05-2006, 07:56 PM

Easy on the OP, guys. He isn't a cheater, he isn't an ass. He simply made an unethical decision. You are not required to act on your ethics. Ethics are definately short-term -EV, and may be longterm -EV as well. However, it is a cost I'm certainly willing to pay as I know many of you are as well. But we can't be angry because not everyone adheres to our moral and ethical standards.

Yaaaa, personally, I think I'd chop the pot with him.

Richard Tanner · #57 07-05-2006, 07:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ethics question:

I had this come up during a cashgame. Game is crazy pineapple, each player has 3 cards, it is played just like holdem, except one card is discarded after the betting round on the flop. The dealer is to make sure each player discards, but players are also responsible for their own cards. I'm in a pot with an old man who has failed to discard or discarded slowly several times previously.

On a flop of KJ4 all clubs, I hold KJx and keep the top 2 pair. There is betting through to the river, when my opponent reveals his hand of Q93, all clubs - he did not discard, but flopped a flush regardless of the cards he kept.

Dealer declares my opponents hand dead.

Should I a) give my opponent the whole pot b) give him half the pot c) give him back the money he invested in the pot or d) keep it all?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd offer to split. He loses nothing (beyond his winnings that hand) and is a fitting punishment for breaking the rules. I only say this and not take the whole pot because it's obvious that he would've made the flush regardless.
I think alot of these situations need to be looked at case by case, but this is an oppertunity to do something "in the best interests of the game".

Cody

Masquerade · #58 07-05-2006, 08:01 PM

The rule is that "cards speak" so it's not the dealer's responsibility to call the winner specifically. If you saw you were beaten and took the chips anyway then you were being dishonest. If you want to use the "it's not my responsibility" argument then OK, it's not, it's the floor's. So why are you complaining about the floor's (correct) ruling? After all it's not your responsibility.

Richard Tanner · #59 07-05-2006, 08:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Easy on the OP, guys. He isn't a cheater, he isn't an ass. He simply made an unethical decision. You are not required to act on your ethics. Ethics are definately short-term -EV, and may be longterm -EV as well. However, it is a cost I'm certainly willing to pay as I know many of you are as well. But we can't be angry because not everyone adheres to our moral and ethical standards.

Yaaaa, personally, I think I'd chop the pot with him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I appriciate what you're saying, but poker is a game based on ethics. Allowing something like this to pass is unethical and should be treated as such. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's made a mistake reading my hand before and when it happens it's nice to be in a game where people treat each other with that base level of respect.

Cody

WarDekar · #60 07-05-2006, 08:10 PM

I'm not complaining about the floor's decision, maybe if you read my post you would see it was a QUESTION on the floor's decision.

And yes, at that point it is my responsibility because the pot was raked to me by the DEALER and I was under the impression once cards are mucked and the pot is raked, no changes should be made.