I Keep Dreaming of This WSOP Hand...

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Not to steal LFT's thunder, but after he started up his "Imaginary WSOP Hand" threads, I found myself dreaming of hypothetical hands at night. There is one, in particular, that really bothers me. I think this one bothers me because I) I am not entirely comfortable playing deep-stacked, II) My biggest fear is going broke on the first hand, and III) I never know what's the best way to play against unknowns.

So, would love to hear how you guys play this hand.

First damn hand of the Main Event. You're obviously excited to be at your first WSOP. You recognize no one at your table. Villain in this hand is wearing a Party Poker tee-shirt. Blinds are 25/50.

You look down at red Kings in the CO. Folded to UTG+1 who raises to 150, UTG+2 calls, and it's folded to you. You reraise to 850. UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls. 1925 in the pot.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. UTG+2 checks, you bet 1350. UTG+2 now raises to 4500. Besides puking, what's your move?

Note: You are not Phil Hellmuth.

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My friend has qualified through a European site and has a warm-up $1000 event and a consolation $1000 event if he gets knocked out on the first day. His expenses are paid and he gets $1000 cash if he wins nothing.

If I were in his shoes, I would push this pre-flop. I simply wouldn't want to piss about, shaking with nerves and with no reads, on the very first hand, with KK. I understand that this is hardly the greatest play in the world but I am not the greatest player. I'd be ready to play very tight until I had some reads and felt comfortable. Frankly, I'd be willing to 'waste' a big hand pre-flop rather than try and play it correctly, reraising and then getting out played on a draw-heavy or ace high flop. I would then play extremely tight for a while, and, next time, have a clearer idea of whether villain is really going to call reraises with a pair of eights.

As played, I check behind and raise or bet most turns.

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Obviously, their is some disagreement on what is the right play on the 1st hand of THE major event after being c/r'd, but why the **** would we check behind on this flop? Several people have suggested this. If you are checking behind on this flop with KK, then you should be checking behind on every single hand that you REraise preflop, until you hit the nutz, then you should bet and fold everyone out on your nutz hand.

[Pat Southern]

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If I were in his shoes, I would push this pre-flop. I simply wouldn't want to piss about, shaking with nerves and with no reads, on the very first hand, with KK. I understand that this is hardly the greatest play in the world but I am not the greatest player. I'd be ready to play very tight until I had some reads and felt comfortable.

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God I can't wait to get down to vegas.

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If I were in his shoes, I would push this pre-flop. I simply wouldn't want to piss about, shaking with nerves and with no reads, on the very first hand, with KK. I understand that this is hardly the greatest play in the world but I am not the greatest player. I'd be ready to play very tight until I had some reads and felt comfortable.

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God I can't wait to get down to vegas.

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[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[registrar]

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If I were in his shoes, I would push this pre-flop. I simply wouldn't want to piss about, shaking with nerves and with no reads, on the very first hand, with KK. I understand that this is hardly the greatest play in the world but I am not the greatest player. I'd be ready to play very tight until I had some reads and felt comfortable.

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God I can't wait to get down to vegas.

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Lol. You'll get a lot of this. You'll also get people pushing all-in on a five-high flush draw.

I won't be there but if I were, KillPHil would be tucked inside my back pocket.

[Black Aces 518]

As I mentioned, I would check behind the flop, for several reasons.

1) I have a hand that I would love to showdown, but not for all of my chips on Day 1, hand 1, with 200xBB and 2 hour levels.

2) The pot has become somewhat bloated already, due to the raise, call, fairly large reraise, and call. If we bet, say, 1200 here, and villain calls, the pot is now 4300. Say the turn is an offsuit jack, and villain checks again. Fire again? How much? If you bet 2400 and villain pushes, now what? What if he just calls, then pushes a blank river? Club river? The pot has become too large to maneuver effectively without exposing your whole stack.

3) You have to provide some cover for the times you check behind with, say AdKd here. I wouldn't check behind TT-QQ because they are more vulnerable, but sometimes am checking behind KK and AA to cover for times when I check behind AK.

I think it's funny that people love to mock the "donks" that go broke with AA or whatever early on, and now are saying that they are willing to go broke with KK on a rags board against a complete unknown in the WSOP ME. Yeah, if it's 90 minutes in, and you know this guy is Lance Funston, well, giddyup. But to assume that a random player is willing to put all his money in here with tens or A8 or whatever, I don't buy.

[Pat Southern]

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As I mentioned, I would check behind the flop, for several reasons.

1) I have a hand that I would love to showdown, but not for all of my chips on Day 1, hand 1, with 200xBB and 2 hour levels.

2) The pot has become somewhat bloated already, due to the raise, call, fairly large reraise, and call. If we bet, say, 1200 here, and villain calls, the pot is now 4300. Say the turn is an offsuit jack, and villain checks again. Fire again? How much? If you bet 2400 and villain pushes, now what? What if he just calls, then pushes a blank river? Club river? The pot has become too large to maneuver effectively without exposing your whole stack.

3) You have to provide some cover for the times you check behind with, say AdKd here. I wouldn't check behind TT-QQ because they are more vulnerable, but sometimes am checking behind KK and AA to cover for times when I check behind AK.

I think it's funny that people love to mock the "donks" that go broke with AA or whatever early on, and now are saying that they are willing to go broke with KK on a rags board against a complete unknown in the WSOP ME. Yeah, if it's 90 minutes in, and you know this guy is Lance Funston, well, giddyup. But to assume that a random player is willing to put all his money in here with tens or A8 or whatever, I don't buy.

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Just because you bet the flop doesn't mean that you're willing to stack off. You can still execute pot control on later streets, while 1. protecting your hand better on flop 2. defining opponents hand 3. getting value out of a relatively strong hand. By checking the flop you're more likely to stack off or fold the best hand because you haven't done anything to narrow his range.

[registrar]

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Obviously, their is some disagreement on what is the right play on the 1st hand of THE major event after being c/r'd, but why the **** would we check behind on this flop? Several people have suggested this. If you are checking behind on this flop with KK, then you should be checking behind on every single hand that you REraise preflop, until you hit the nutz, then you should bet and fold everyone out on your nutz hand.

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For all the reasons I've stated: fear and inexperience, first hand, no reads.

However, I think it's a defensible play from a pure poker perspective. You've raised a bet and a flat call. We assume that villain was behind pf and that he's not getting this tricky with aces. On this flop, he's thus either connected and we are way behind, or he is still behind. It's possible, of course, that he will call all the way down with his smaller pocket pair and we win a big pot but he's going to fold to your bet most of the time. If he does call a flop bet, do you then second barrel, and third barrel, getting further and further committed with your overpair? And if another club falls? And if an ace falls? And if, once you're committed, he pushes in?

However, check, represent AK and then bet, or more likley raise the turn. I think that is may be more profitable and certainly makes the decisions easier.

I think it's possible that checking behind is more profitable against villain's range than betting.

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2) The pot has become somewhat bloated already, due to the raise, call, fairly large reraise, and call. If we bet, say, 1200 here, and villain calls, the pot is now 4300. Say the turn is an offsuit jack, and villain checks again. Fire again?

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This would be a very easy check.

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If you bet 2400 and villain pushes, now what? What if he just calls, then pushes a blank river? Club river?

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This is why.

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3) You have to provide some cover for the times you check behind with, say AdKd here.

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I would almost never check behind with AdKd here, especially since I got the pot HU, because my hand is super easy to play correctly given any response by Villain.

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I think it's funny that people love to mock the "donks" that go broke with AA or whatever early on, and now are saying that they are willing to go broke with KK on a rags board against a complete unknown in the WSOP ME.

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Who is going broke here? Most everyone who said bet on the flop is advocating a fold to the CR. The value you lose when you get CRed off your hand (which 99% of the time will be when you are beat) does not make up for the lost value of I) missing your flop c-bet, II) allowing Villain to hit his card when he would have otherwise folded on the flop, and III) allowing a scare card to come off that kills your action against hands like 99-QQ.

Also, if you check behind on this flop and you are up against a set, you almsot definitely lose more money this way.

[mattmcegg]

I def dont check the flop here, but I dont bet as much as in the OP. I fold to the huge Raise. His passive play PF makes me think mid pair and could have hit trips. Toss it in the muck.

[Black Aces 518]

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I would almost never check behind with AdKd here, especially since I got the pot HU, because my hand is super easy to play correctly given any response by Villain.



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OK, villain calls. Turn is a 9, he checks. Your action? Check again? River is 2 and he checks again. Bet? Check for showdown?

My thoughts are that I'm betting AK, KK and AA here 20-40% of the time, and JJ-QQ and whatever randomized reraise hand I have 80-95% of the time. I don't want to bet every single time, or check every single time, either in general, or with any specific hand.

Here, my #1 priority has become getting to showdown. #2 is extracting value, #3 is protecting my hand. I just don't feel like villain has a great shot of catching me if he's behind (only ace-whatever of clubs is truly that dangerous).

I also feel like I lose less here when he has 88 by checking. By betting now, I'm already getting on the installment plan. He's gonna have a hard time getting 9000 of my chips in the pot on the turn and river (unless I hit a king, natch).

My range for villain is AK, AQ, and 22-AA with extra emphasis on, say, 77-JJ, and a spike on AA. He cold called a raise, then a reraise. I'm not putting him on 67 or some such. And I think the best way to get $$ from the pairs that we're beating is to check here and let him "put us on AK". If we fire again on the flop, he might get rid of his 99. He might also be the guy who puts every raiser on AK, and so c/r any blank flops. I don't want to get c/r off my hand here.

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Who is going broke here? Most everyone who said bet on the flop is advocating a fold to the CR.

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Well, adanthar for one, and it's not easy to dismiss him as an outlier, when he's such a highly respected poster.

If I had 88 here in villain's shoes, I'm probably check-calling, then leading the turn. If you get called with your 1200 bet on the flop, and the pot is now 4300, and villain leads 2200 on the turn, say the Jd. Now what? I agree that if he checks the turn, you check. Will you call? Raise?

Say you call. The pot is now 8700 and you have 5600 or so behind. That spot sucks too. I'd rather call a bet of 1200 on the turn, making my river decision easier.

These WSOP questions are making me ball up into the fetal position. If I get KK on the first hand, I'm mucking. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]