why NOT to limp preflop - 6max NL

[tehsuk]

Nice thread. Now write one about calling raises preflop in 6-max, thanks [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[cero_z]

Hi KRANTZ,

Your post makes some good points about why open-raising is preferable to open-limping on many occasions, but virtually everyone agrees that it is. As for your assertion that open-limping is always worse, and the evidence you provide, I strongly disagree.

As iceman pointed out, the reasoning behind points 1) and 2) is flawed. There's nothing inherent to open-limping that means you can't win a big pot or lose a small pot with an excellent hand. Your example of limping in with Q3s and getting stacked by K5s when you both flush is obviously bad; change your opponent's hand to J5s and you'll be winning a big pot as often as you lose one. Also, there's no reason that open-raising prevents someone from calling you with higher cards suited in your suit. Raising makes it more likely that you'll PLAY a big pot, for better or for worse; that's all it does, in regards to pot size.

Furthermore, your assertion that open-raising "creates +EV situations where none existed before," is arbitrary. It's easy to imagine scenarios where the reverse is true. Here's one that comes up occassionally in various forms:

You have a very aggressive player on your left. He is constantly overplaying his "made" hands (like any pair) post-flop, and also frequently makes big bluffs with air post-flop. Additionally, when you open-limp, he almost always raises to 7 or 8 BBs. When you open-raise to 3-4BBs, he almost always reraises to 5x your opening bet. With 100BB effective stacks, you pick up 22 in LP. You can either raise, and play a pot with 12%-20% of your stack in pre-flop, or limp, and play the pot with 8% in pre-flop. While you can debate whether it's +EV, neutral, or -EV to play the hand in a raised pot (I'd argue that it's slightly negative if you play very well post-flop), it can't be as +EV as the clearly profitable play of limping.

You may feel that this example is contrived; I concede that it only comes up once in a while. A much more common spot that comes up when playing live is that you have the same hand (22), and see that a very predictable player on your left has picked up a "big hand" pre-flop. You know he will raise if you limp, and reraise if you raise. Limping is better unless the stacks are very deep.

There are plenty of other examples I can think of off the top of my head. The point is not that raising isn't usually the best option; I agree that it is. My point is that thinking along the lines of, "Never do x because x is always inferior," speaks to a weakness that permeates the online game, and these forums. It's the weakness of playing a system rigidly. Creating a very complicated, very solid basic strategy and then applying it rigidly is an approach that undoubtedly will win a lot of money in the mid-stakes games. But, you won't dominate those games, or beat the toughest games, until your strategy is dynamic, adapting to changing conditions as they arise. A player in the 2 examples above, playing a rigid basic strategy of open-raising or folding, would likely fold the deuces, and would still be playing a profitable game over the maniac on his left. But, he'd make more in that spot if he adjusted his strategy to account for the unusual conditions.

[KRANTZ]

cero, if you read everything through you'll notice my examples were admittedly a bit flawed in that it could go either way. but i do account for scenarios in which limping may be more profitable than raising.

the player you describe in your 22 example is one which i account for- one where if you limp and call a raise you do have implied odds to play 22 because he will either bluff maniacally or pay you off with any piece/pair should you flop a set. you'll also get away much cheaper since it will be extremely difficult to play a raised pot vs him and push him off any piece of the board.

i don't think i say open limping is ALWAYS worse, but then again, i may have (this post is 6 months old). but the FACT remains that in 6-handed play, FOR THE MOST PART, raising is preferable. the point is to illustrate the reasons to build a preflop strategy around raising and why it's important to do that, as well as show that open raising is a means to an end that open limping will not often achieve IN 6max.

there are always exceptions. i often say that there are many in the online game, or on these forums, that have a handbook for how to play. and while they may carve out a decent winrate, your last paragraph rings true: "you won't dominate those games, or beat the toughest games, until your strategy is dynamic..." extremely, extremely important that players realize this and get better at this.

your examples are just as arbitrary as the ones that i gave, obviously. hopefully people can come away from our nitpicking and understand the idea behind that last paragraph.

[valtaherra]

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And just because FSU is 31/14 does not necessarily mean he's limping a lot, right?

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I guess I am dumb here but from what comes the difference then ?

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Calling raises preflop.

[jlocdog]

StevePa wrote a post in MTT about 'exploitability' and what it actually means and how it can get easily distorted into thinking one way of playing is exploitable, etc...

This concept here seems to fall into that. If you are not changing your game to the dynamics of the table and adjusting constantly to your opponents then your play becomes exploitable. The same play that you were exploiting your opponents weaknesses are now actually your weaknesses. What may not look like a +EV play, or the most +EV play at that momment actually may very well be. Recognizing that your opponent has adjusted to your constant pounding and 3-betting may have made him change his game to now limp reraise more and put you in tough spots. Now limping behind or open limping may actually be optimal for this very momment/hand/orbit/hr./till it isn't.

The most frustrating thing that occurs to me when playing a tough opponent isn't them constantly raising. It is when I feel they are always one move ahead of me. When I decide to adapt to my surroundings but when I do I find they have adapted to my adaption. When Mr. aggro open limps it can really throw you off. It may make you more confused then if would have just made his standard raise. Now you find yourself in a guessing game throughout. As long as he will openlimp with AA/KK as he will with 89s as he will with KT as he will with garbage, his range will be just as much a mistery as if he raised.

Not to say I open limp alot or much at all, but to discount it as a weapon seems silly. I think I don't do it often because it will take yet another skill set to do so and I havn't practiced it that often. Maybe something different, I don't know. One way to be able to open limp and not worry constant about raises is to limp reraise more liberally it seems. I guess it is the same as 3-betting more liberally. Granted you will be OOP a bit more (but not always since the blinds can be the raisers) but a limp reraise also garners that much more respect I feel and maybe will neutralize the slight disadvantage.

[AK47Suited]

Mixing up ur game and limping here and there is good.

Say you have 33, and u open for a raise and get re-raised u cant call now. But if you limp knowing ur going get raised a lil bit you have the odds to call for a set.

Also I like limping KQ, AJ type hands to win a small pots, I really upped my profitably with these hands by limping in bad position instead of folding.

[KRANTZ]

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Mixing up ur game and limping here and there is good.

Say you have 33, and u open for a raise and get re-raised u cant call now. But if you limp knowing ur going get raised a lil bit you have the odds to call for a set.

Also I like limping KQ, AJ type hands to win a small pots, I really upped my profitably with these hands by limping in bad position instead of folding.

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sigh...

[binions]

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Hi KRANTZ,

Your post makes some good points about why open-raising is preferable to open-limping on many occasions, but virtually everyone agrees that it is. As for your assertion that open-limping is always worse, and the evidence you provide, I strongly disagree.



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In 6max, ALWAYS open raising is less of a mistake than open limping TOO MUCH.

One reason to open limp, however, is to let the blinds hit a funky hand that you can beat. Therefore, occasionally, I will open limp on the button with Axs or a pocket pair, because flush over flush and set v. 2 pair are hands you can stack someone with.

[Darkfolder]

The most important reason to openraise instead of openlimp is that you will win more pots when both you and your opponent misses the flop and you C-bet.

[binions]

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The most important reason to openraise instead of openlimp is that you will win more pots when both you and your opponent misses the flop and you C-bet.

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I believe that point has been amply made, and I agree with it. That's why you had better have a good reason to limp.