2005 U.S. Poker Championship

[Sykes]

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Does Brian Haveson know how to play poker? How do you lose 400BB with one pair (KK vs AA)?

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I'm pretty sure John Juanda knows how to play poker, yet your criticism would apply to him as well. The fact is, it was a good flop for both hands so they got all their money in. You can't win a tournament playing like a mouse.

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wtf is a mouse?

You really expect me to believe that Juanda plays QQ/AK/JJ like this? Please.. give me a break.

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Your original contention was how do you lose that much with one pair. My point is Juanda was risking the same (actually even more, since Haveson had him covered) with "just one pair". Or do you make that big a distinction between AA and KK? If so, then should Juanda have folded if he was holding KK instead of AA?

Anyway, your opponent checks to you on a flop of TT9 and you're holding KK, you check behind and let him outdraw you? No, you protect your hand because the pot has already gotten very big because of the preflop action, and the only hands you realistically have to worry about are AA and 99. And because Juanda didn't put in the last raise, AA seems even less likely. And you may even get called with QQ or JJ and double up. But even if your opponent folds, you still win a big pot.

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AA is very different than KK. Especially the way the hand played, I think Haveson could have play his hand differently.

Honestly, if I have KK on a TT9 flop with all the action preflop, I would honestly check behind Juanda. Seriously, I don't think Juanda calls Haveson's 3rd raise with JJ/AK and maybe does he with QQ, so the other 2 hands are KK/AA. Haveson is tying with the other KK, is far behind AA, and is far ahead of QQ. So what card do we not want to see on the turn? a Q?

Seriously, the way Haveson played his hand, it seemed like, "OMG, KK, all-in!!!!!!!!"

[TimTimSalabim]

I disagree. I seriously doubt that Juanda is folding AK or JJ preflop in that spot. In fact, with implied odds, he might call with virtually any pair in that spot to try and flop a set. (Although it's hard to tell what the odds are given EPSN's poor coverage of bet and stack sizes).

[Sykes]

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I disagree. I seriously doubt that Juanda is folding AK or JJ preflop in that spot. In fact, with implied odds, he might call with virtually any pair in that spot to try and flop a set. (Although it's hard to tell what the odds are given EPSN's poor coverage of bet and stack sizes).

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lol, I really doubt that Juanda would re-raise with JJ/AK there against Haveson (who is a tight player). So, let's say he did re-raise with JJ/AK, I'm pretty sure he would fold JJ/AK once Haveson re-re-raised him preflop. I am pretty sure Juanda was not getting proper odds to call for a set since Haveson final raise preflop put in something like 40% of his stack.

[TimTimSalabim]

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I disagree. I seriously doubt that Juanda is folding AK or JJ preflop in that spot. In fact, with implied odds, he might call with virtually any pair in that spot to try and flop a set. (Although it's hard to tell what the odds are given EPSN's poor coverage of bet and stack sizes).

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lol, I really doubt that Juanda would re-raise with JJ/AK there against Haveson (who is a tight player). So, let's say he did re-raise with JJ/AK, I'm pretty sure he would fold JJ/AK once Haveson re-re-raised him preflop. I am pretty sure Juanda was not getting proper odds to call for a set since Haveson final raise preflop put in something like 40% of his stack.

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If Juanda only ever reraised preflop with AA/KK/QQ that would make him a pretty predictable player, which I guarantee you he's not. As for whether he folds AK/JJ or even a small pair to a 3rd reraise, a lot depends on the amount of the raise, in addition to the pot size and stack sizes at the time, which we don't really have enough information for (if you do, please fill it in).

[cbloom]

Getting 400 BB in with KK is incredibly bad, there's no buts about it.

Getting it in on the flop was bad, but I think the worst part is the 4-bet preflop. From a tight player like Haveson that screams KK+ and allows opponents to play perfectly against him.

[ClonexxSA]

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I disagree. I seriously doubt that Juanda is folding AK or JJ preflop in that spot. In fact, with implied odds, he might call with virtually any pair in that spot to try and flop a set. (Although it's hard to tell what the odds are given EPSN's poor coverage of bet and stack sizes).

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lol, I really doubt that Juanda would re-raise with JJ/AK there against Haveson (who is a tight player). So, let's say he did re-raise with JJ/AK, I'm pretty sure he would fold JJ/AK once Haveson re-re-raised him preflop. I am pretty sure Juanda was not getting proper odds to call for a set since Haveson final raise preflop put in something like 40% of his stack.

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If Juanda only ever reraised preflop with AA/KK/QQ that would make him a pretty predictable player, which I guarantee you he's not. As for whether he folds AK/JJ or even a small pair to a 3rd reraise, a lot depends on the amount of the raise, in addition to the pot size and stack sizes at the time, which we don't really have enough information for (if you do, please fill it in).

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The reraise by Juanda was to around 2k because Haveson's re-reraise was to 6k.

There is one thing you are forgetting about this hand. Haveson has a huge reputation as being a VERY tight player. Juanda knows this and this early in the tournament you can be fairly sure he is tossing JJ/AK away to a re-reraise of that size from Haveson. With his reputation, it can only mean KK or AA.

Haveson is aware of his image, or should be, and played this hand like [censored]. If you asked Juanda, I bet he would say he would have put his bankroll on the line that Haveson has QQ-AA in that hand, with the most likely hand being KK.

So pretty much..when Haveson made that re-reraise and got called, he should have been VERY worried, since his image is way tight. Hell, he should have been worried when Juanda reraised his ass to 2k. Instead, Haveson dropped almost 40% of his stack into the pot preflop and dropped the rest in on the flop.

He could have played the hand very differently.

[okterrific]

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excellent coverage ! all around

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Mostly agree. Much better than WPT. But would be much improved if they mentioned what the blinds are at, bet sizes, and the size of the pot.

At least 4 times ive seen them cut to a table and the announcers say "he just went allin" . ok for how much? 2,000 allin ? 40,000 allin? how big was the pot before he pushed? Is the opponent getting ok odds to make the call?


A pot size total somewhere on the screen would help.

[chicken10der]

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A pot size total somewhere on the screen would help.

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It was above the community card graphics during some pots, but not for others. No idea why.

[TimTimSalabim]

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There is one thing you are forgetting about this hand. Haveson has a huge reputation as being a VERY tight player. Juanda knows this and this early in the tournament you can be fairly sure he is tossing JJ/AK away to a re-reraise of that size from Haveson. With his reputation, it can only mean KK or AA.

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Wasn't actually forgetting it, just didn't know it. I've only seem Haveson play a very few hands on TV. I'll take your word on it. It seems if you had that tight an image that your opponents are folding premium hands to your 3rd raise that would be easy for you to exploit. If you're saying he's not smart enough to do that, again I'll have to take your word on it.

[okterrific]

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A pot size total somewhere on the screen would help.

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It was above the community card graphics during some pots, but not for others. No idea why.

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Missed that entirely. Do you think that ESPN didnt show pot size on every hand was b/c they didnt know how much was in the pot? If thats the case its just silly on ESPN's part.