No Maroon love

[TStoneMBD]

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He really only ever mentions 2+2 on his blog when:

1)someone is playing the "recommended" 2+2 stats for short-handed holdem and Matt is talking about how to exploit that style

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Does anyone have a link to an entry like this? I would be interested in seeing it. This thread has led me to going through the blog archives, but I'm certainly not intending to read all of the entries.

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yes i would love to read this also, but im pretty sure that matt has the wrong impression of what the "2p2 style" is. he says we play overly tight preflop and overly aggressive postflop. the 2p2 style is pretty much 30/20 (5-6handed) with 2AF. i doubt matt has less than a 2AF and i doubt hed consider 30/20 to be too tight.

he also clearly has no idea what the winrates are of the players here so i really doubt he has any sense of how sophisticated twoplustwo really is. maybe he read 2p2 a year or two ago and saw that the ceiling on winrates was $300/hr and thinks that still holds true. $300/hr is pretty much the medium these days.

[Enon]

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For someone with admittedly modest cash game results for most of this year and has admited to playing bad in some major live tourneys, I'm very suprised to hear you make such an outrageous and baseless claim."

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I'm surprised to hear you say that. If you are who I think you are, you're one of the few people on here I've met personally and your play is exactly what I refer to as 2+2 style. I don't know where you got those impressions, they certainly weren't from anything I wrote. With the exception of one recent week I've killed the cash games this year. I'm at over $700/hr total. That's far from modest. If anything I'm running hot.

And I've played one major tournament, in which I went broke with KK to QQ. Bad play, I know.

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I got that impression when I've checked into your blog over the past 8 months. When you are not playing higher that 30/60 because your roll isn't greater that 500 bb combined with the fact that you trying out new games (2-7) it makes me think you haven't had such great results. I also had a number of posts from this year where you complained about your results from your time at the paradise 40/80 game. I made an inference based on these posts and I guess I was wrong. You could have put a lot of money down on a house or made a large investment.

And yes, I am the guy who you are thinking of and I cant blame your characterization of my play based on the few encouters we had about a year ago in the party 30 game and on the PPM cruise. I started out my poker career playing too tight PF from the guidance of 2+2 literature but since we've played about a year ago, my game has improved a great deal and my results have reflected this. I doubt I'm playing as laggy as you preflop but looser nonetheless and much better postflop.

Anyways, my point still holds about your silly assumption about a community of players which you admittantly know little about these days. I think you'd be suprised to hear about how many top players are regular or semi-regular contributors to the forum. Some players, such as NYplayer, dont like to advertise the fact that they win big in some of the biggest limit games online and rarely make the kind of boastful claims that you tend to make on 2+2 and in your blog. Although I've met you in person and would vouch for you as a nice guy, your online writings gives the impression of a good player that is too arrogant to give other good players with a tighter style any credit.

Although I highly doubt you'd start contributing to the forum, I'd be very interested in hearing of more opportunities to loosen up my game and take on more slightly ev situations that I probably pass up now.

-Lee

[BPA234]

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I'm going to concur with Felicia and back Matt on this one. I'm a long-time lurker on 2+2 and a long-time reader of Matt's blog. It's not like Matt spends his day trolling 2+2 and ripping on people with ridiculous, made-up accusations. He really only ever mentions 2+2 on his blog when:

1)someone is playing the "recommended" 2+2 stats for short-handed holdem and Matt is talking about how to exploit that style

or

2)Someone here decides to rip on him and he thinks it would be funny to get a rise out of them. For instance, read all of this post.

And let's be honest - Matt may be guilty of a blunt style, but a lot of his criticism of 2+2 is both true and worth considering, espeically his objection to the way consensus tends to form here and dissenting opinions are mocked.

Just my $.02

matt

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Correct.

[palman]

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For someone with admittedly modest cash game results for most of this year and has admited to playing bad in some major live tourneys, I'm very suprised to hear you make such an outrageous and baseless claim."

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I'm surprised to hear you say that. If you are who I think you are, you're one of the few people on here I've met personally and your play is exactly what I refer to as 2+2 style. I don't know where you got those impressions, they certainly weren't from anything I wrote. With the exception of one recent week I've killed the cash games this year. I'm at over $700/hr total. That's far from modest. If anything I'm running hot.

And I've played one major tournament, in which I went broke with KK to QQ. Bad play, I know.

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I got that impression when I've checked into your blog over the past 8 months. When you are not playing higher that 30/60 because your roll isn't greater that 500 bb combined with the fact that you trying out new games (2-7) it makes me think you haven't had such great results. I also had a number of posts from this year where you complained about your results from your time at the paradise 40/80 game. I made an inference based on these posts and I guess I was wrong. You could have put a lot of money down on a house or made a large investment.

And yes, I am the guy who you are thinking of and I cant blame your characterization of my play based on the few encouters we had about a year ago in the party 30 game and on the PPM cruise. I started out my poker career playing too tight PF from the guidance of 2+2 literature but since we've played about a year ago, my game has improved a great deal and my results have reflected this. I doubt I'm playing as laggy as you preflop but looser nonetheless and much better postflop.

Anyways, my point still holds about your silly assumption about a community of players which you admittantly know little about these days. I think you'd be suprised to hear about how many top players are regular or semi-regular contributors to the forum. Some players, such as NYplayer, dont like to advertise the fact that they win big in some of the biggest limit games online and rarely make the kind of boastful claims that you tend to make on 2+2 and in your blog. Although I've met you in person and would vouch for you as a nice guy, your online writings gives the impression of a good player that is too arrogant to give other good players with a tighter style any credit.

Although I highly doubt you'd start contributing to the forum, I'd be very interested in hearing of more opportunities to loosen up my game and take on more slightly ev situations that I probably pass up now.

-Lee

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Matt has always said in his blog he is overly conservative bankroll management wise. So don't take the fact that he's playing 30/60 to mean he only has a 500BB roll for any given stakes.

So basically it comes down to Matt makes fun of 2+2'ers as a joke, and either those really good 2+2'ers or those non good 2+2'ers point out that there are really good 2+2'ers out there to try and win the argument, correct?

Kinda like how seemingly no one realized Vince/Smoothcall was a troll on here, few realize he's making a generalization joke to get a rise out of people. It's natural to mock someone like El due to his post count regardless of his success and skill.

[PartyGirlUK]

Was this original prop bet proposed on the forums? I am sure someone can locate it if so....

[PartyGirlUK]

Found it!

Link

Themaroon: ' I would gladly crossbook my $10/$20 6 max hourly rate with just about any 4 table $15/$30 player and would come out ahead. '

Eld:

I assume this is referring to your 2-tabling rate as you allude to elsewhere in your post. I haven't played on Party for a while, but I'd be happy to take that bet for sport. How about we pick a time period and do a 10x crossbook (ie: winner gets 10x the difference in earnings)? We can get someone we agree to mutually trust (perhaps Felicia Lee) to hold something like $20k each in escrow. I'm sure there are numerous others who would take this offer against you - 4-tabling either 15-30 or 10-20 against your 2-tabling results.

Edited to add: 40 hrs of total play where we play and datamine each other during pre-agreed to times and then crossbook at 10x stakes seem like reasonable parameters to me.

[TStoneMBD]

lol wow i definitely would have crossbooked a 2tabling 10/20er when i was 4+tabling 15/30. i would have let him divide my hourly rate to make my MT ratio 4.

[J.A.Sucker]

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Maroon,

Would you like to do the wager? If it's similar to what I recall it being in my post above, I'm game.

If so, please dig it up and we can escrow as much as you want with any insurer. BTW, at the time I was under the impression you were friends w/ 2+2 regulars who were also bloggers like Felicia Lee. Given that top cash and tourney players from UB, Stars, Party, and Prima as well as many live cash and tourney players are all regulars here, I find it quite surprising that you don't know any of them.

I don't recall what the bet was exactly, but if you think $250k needs to be escrowed, let's do it bigshot.

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I will hold the money for safekeeping if you guys really want to the bet down, and I think several will attest to my ability to do so in good faith.

[Dids]

"So basically it comes down to Matt makes fun of 2+2'ers as a joke,"

The amount of vitrol involved makes it seem non-joke like and really petty. If it's just a joke, its a pretty bad one.

[PartyGirlUK]

BTW Matt, since El D is so poor, and since you are so awesome and will only want to take this bet if it is worth your time, I am willing to contribute up to $30K to the bet.

Dean