New Fight Question

[GiantBuddha]

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In a no rules fight, a strategy of staying on your back or in crab position would be inferior.

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I've always regarded the argument that "90% of all fights end up on the ground, therefore you should primarily practice ground fighting" as pretty weak. To me, if you're really interested in learning to defend yourself, you should have no interest in taking a fight to the ground. Knowing how to defend yourself once there is an important skill, but unless you're fighting on a mat, the ground has several disadvantages:

1) Very difficult to combat multiple opponents even with a large skill differential when you're on the ground.

2) Broken glass, oncoming cars, other obstructions.

3) The ground is dirty.

[GiantBuddha]

Best MMA knockout ever: BJJ guy vs. that kickboxer w/the dent in his head.

BJJ guy goes for the legs. Kickboxer shoots his legs out and they both fall down. Ref stands them up.

BJJ guy goes for the legs. Kickboxer shoots his legs out and they both go down. Ref stands them up.

BJJ guy goes for the legs. Kickboxer shoots his legs out and falls on BJJ guy. BJJ guy slams chin first into the mat and knocks himself out. Game over.

Clearly the kickboxer had experience with guys going for his legs. It was still funny, though. I'd never seen a guy knock himself out before.

[Hume]

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Navy Seal.

We’re talking about the best in the world. If so, the closest he’s gotten to his enemy has involved him sneaking up on his targets, and making silent kills with weapons, or possibly using weapons to make distance kills. If a Seal is in hand to hand combat, normally something has gone wrong. He certainly trains for this situation, but if we’re talking the best Seal in the world, then we’re talking about one that hasn’t had to be in too many hand to hand combat situations. We probably shouldn’t have included a SEAL. Not because they’re not bad ass but because of the context of the situation.


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You do realize that the Navy Seals are a part of the U.S. military, right?

[MuresanForMVP]

Smash, I've yet to see one post from you in this thread with any sort of substance as well. Basically everyone of your "contributions" boils down to "UFC>Boxer?!?!?! LOLZZZ". fighting is much more than throwing punches ace, I don't care how hard you hit. Then you say that the boxer wouldn't just sit there and allow himself to be taken down, but in the next breath you say that the boxer would,without a doubt, land some massive KO blow on the UFC guy. Well, much like the boxer wouldnt just sit there and allow himself to be taken down, the UFC guy wouldn't just be sitting there with his c*ck in his hand waiting to get smashed upside the head. What would result is what we in the biz call a "fight".

I think it's pretty funny that basically every other poster in this 500 reply thread has generally said that in a fight to the death the boxer would be useless because he has easily the most limited skill-set, then you come in babbling about how they'd just punch these guys silly. It just wouldn't happen man.

[Smasharoo]

Basically everyone of your "contributions" boils down to "UFC>Boxer?!?!?! LOLZZZ".

Uh huh.


I think it's pretty funny that basically every other poster in this 500 reply thread has generally said that in a fight to the death the boxer would be useless because he has easily the most limited skill-set, then you come in babbling about how they'd just punch these guys silly. It just wouldn't happen man.

Show me the way, brother! Sadly, majority oppinion doesn't equate to correctness, much as that would bring great joy to many people I am sure. I would suspect strongly that the majority oppinion here is influenced by the age and ethnicity of the posters more than any sort of informed knowledge. The UFC is heavily marketed towards 20 something white guys, and shockingly 20 something white guys think UFC fighters have some sort of magical abilities that would overcome vastly superior stregnth and conditioning.

The diffrence in physical characteristics between a world class boxer and a world class UFC fighter is not small, and I think that's the whole problem here. People don't understand how uniquely physically gifted truely elite atheltes are. MMA, at present doesn't attract that caliber of physically gifted athelete for simple reasons, not enough cash.

It's not complicated. Maybe someday there will be enough cash for the MMA guys to stand a chance in something like this, but today isn't that day.

[MuresanForMVP]

I think another problem in this thread is that we're getting people to make cases for a SOCOM unit (in this instance the SEALs) who have no damn clue of what theyre talking about (the one SERE guy knows, but other than that I dont know...).
For the record I gave the upper-hand to the UFC fighter, but to me the SEAL is the ultimate wild-card. If we're going to choose the most battle-hardened, most effective hand-to-hand fighter on any SEAL team then he should get a definite chance. These men, men who have seen the worst this world has to offer, who have been in life or death situations will have another level, another "switch" if you will, that 95% of people will never understand. I've heard stories of Army SF guys engaging 4-5 men in unarmed combat, get their shoulder dislocated, but still manage to kill their attackers. Granted, those 4 or 5 men are not very well trained (Im assuming) in H2H combat, but you can't possibly discount the fact that they were 4-5 guys who understood that they were fighting for their lives, and would go to any lengths to preserve their existences at that moment.

It seems that the biggest problem when it came to grasping the "best" concept was that people continually said "SEALs aren't specifically trained for unarmed combat. If they engage in H2H combat something went wrong." Maybe this is the case in general, but we're referring to the SEAL who is the BEST at it. The other problem I saw was when people attempted to articulate their arguments in favor of the SEALs by simply saying "they wouldn't fight, they would KILL". then you got into the whole "deathblow" nonsense. There is a great deal of training done to familiarize any SpecOps operator with parts of the anatomy that cause the most pain, and I think that's what people had in mind.

Here's an excerpt from the USMC martial arts program on anatomy and physiology (fairly basic but there's much more to it):

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1. THE HEAD AND NECK.

a. Target Areas and Pressure Points

(1) Cranium. The cranium houses and protects the brain. The cranium is made up of eight bones fused together. The cranium is composed of dense bone and, therefore, is not a good target. However, a powerful blow delivered with a weapon such as a club can cause concussion or unconsciousness.

(2) Ears.

(a) Anatomy. The ear consists of three major parts: the external ear, the middle ear, and the internal ear. The external auditory canal allows external sound vibrations to pass into the skull. The opening to this canal is called the external auditory meatus. The eardrum lies at the innermost part of the external ear, next to the middle ear. Sound waves are transformed to mechanical impulses within the middle ear and internal ear. The internal ear controls equilibrium and balance.

(b) Results of an Attack. When the ears are struck, immobilizing effects can occur due to air being trapped and forced down the external auditory canal and into the eardrum. The eardrum can burst causing extreme pain, loss of hearing, or bleeding from the mouth or ear. In addition, balance can be disrupted and a loss of equilibrium could occur. A cupped hand strike is particularly effective on the ears.

(3) Mastoid Process.

(a) Anatomy. Beneath the external auditory meatus is a rounded mastoid process, the point of attachment for many neck muscles. The mastoid process is recessed behind the ear.

(b) Results of an Attack. Pressure applied at an upward angle to the mastoid process results in extreme pain.

(4) Eyes.

(a) Anatomy. The eyes are set into the sockets in the skull called orbital fissures.

(b) Results of an Attack. The eyes are vulnerable to attack because they are extremely sensitive to even the slightest touch and could easily be poked into their sockets. The results of striking the eyes include eyes watering, involuntary closing of the eyes, minor pain, and even shock.

(5) Nose.

(a) Anatomy. The nose is comprised of cartilage and two nasal bones fused at the mid-line to form the bridge of the nose.

(b) Results of an Attack. Strikes to this region can cause watering of the eyes and nose bleeding. Pressure applied to the bone beneath the nose and above the upper lip at an upward 45-degree angle can induce pain compliance.

(6) Jaw.

(a) Anatomy. The jaw, or mandible, is attached to the skull by a hinged joint called the temporomandibular joint.

(b) Results of an Attack.

[1] The mandible can be dislocated when struck downward at a 45-degree angle. The preferred target area is the tip of the mandible (chin). Hitting the jaw can cause unconsciousness because the Vagus nerve running up against the socket behind the jaw controls some motor function and neurological functions of the body including regulating breathing and heart rate.

[2] Striking the side of the mandible where the jaw joint is hinged to the skull will break the joint.

(7) Neck.

(a) Sides of the Neck - Sternocleidomastoid Muscle.

[1] Anatomy. The sternocleidomastoid muscle, responsible for supporting and flexing the head, covers the region on the frontal sides of the neck. Beneath this muscle lie the carotid artery and jugular vein. The carotid artery feeds blood from the heart to the brain; the jugular vein returns blood from the brain to the heart. The carotid sinus is located at the juncture of the carotid arteries and regulates blood pressure.

[2] Results of an Attack. Effects of a blow to this area range from dizziness, to unconsciousness, to death due to a complete collapse of the bloodlines carrying blood to and from the brain. If the carotid sinus is struck, it can fake the body into shutting down, and it can also stop the heart. Strikes should be executed at a 45-degree angle upward.
(8) Throat.

(a) Anatomy. The front of the neck or throat region contains the esophagus and the trachea.

[1] The esophagus is a straight, collapsible tube connecting the pharynx to the stomach, which allows food to enter the digestive system.

[2] Directly in front of the esophagus is the trachea, which is the air tube, leading to the lungs. The trachea is lined with C-shaped rings made of hyaline cartilage. The larynx serves as the opening to the trachea. It is composed of connective tissue containing cartilage, the largest of which is the Adam's apple or thyroid cartilage.

[3] The jugular notch is located at the base of the neck in the notch formed at the center of the clavicle.
(b) Results of an Attack. When the front of the neck is struck, the hyaline cartilage of the trachea can puncture the trachea, disrupting breathing. Pressure applied to the jugular notch at a 45-degree angle downward with a quick stabbing motion with the index finger serves as a distraction technique. Strikes to this area can cause serious damage including shock, unconsciousness, and even death.

(9) Back of the Neck.

(a) Anatomy. The vertebrae house and protect the spinal cord. Nerve impulses from the brain are transmitted to the nervous system throughout the body via the spinal cord. There are 26 vertebrae. At the top of the spinal column are seven cervical vertebrae in the neck. The weight of the skull is supported on top of the spine and vertebrae.
(b) Results of an Attack.

[1] Over-rotating the neck can misalign the vertebrae and damage the spine. This will disrupt the neurological functions controlled by the spine in this area including respiratory functions.

[2] Strikes to the back of the neck (cervical vertebrae) where the base of the skull meets the spine can have a devastating effect causing paralysis or even death.


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There's literally another 10 or so pages on the other points of pain. This is a guide available for all Marines, and goes to show what (specifically) kind of training is received. Again, I said the UFC guy would take it, but I think the *insert Special Ops team* would be the ultimate wild card.

1.UFC
2.Special Ops
3-6.everyone else

[MuresanForMVP]

Smash,

so far the only thing you've said is that boxers get paid more than MMA guys, therefore they are the better fighters. I am in no way a UFC/MMA fanboy, while you're an obvious boxing fanboy, so forgive me if I shrug most of your "arguments" off.

edit: you said that the opinions of most posters is influenced by their "ethnicity"...would you care to elaborate?

[Smasharoo]

so far the only thing you've said is that boxers get paid more than MMA guys, therefore they are the better fighters. I am in no way a UFC/MMA fanboy, while you're an obvious boxing fanboy, so forgive me if I shrug most of your "arguments" off.


No, I'm a "the talent goes where the money is" fanboy. If UFC champioships had $40 million dollar purses, and boxing championships had $200,000 ones I'd say the UFC clearly had the better athletes.

I'm really not sure what's so hard to understand there.


edit: you said that the opinions of most posters is influenced by their "ethnicity"...would you care to elaborate?

Well, really age and ethnicity. I think it's a lot more likely that someone of my or David's generation is going to realize the obvious diffrent in raw physical talent between the two sets of athletes where someone in their twenties won't because the UFC et all has worked so hard to equivicate the two sports, and foster the impression that MMA fighters are somehow the best in the world, instead of the reality that they are second teir athletes in terms of physical gifts.

I also think that because of the demographics of their marketing middle class white guys are much more likely to guy into it than other ethnicities, just as I think a 40 year old Japanese guy is much more likely to think a Sumo wrestler would win in a simmilar contest.

[MuresanForMVP]

"better athlete" is not equal to better fighter.

[Smasharoo]

"better athlete" is not equal to better fighter.

No, certainly not. "Better athelete that gets paid the most to compete in some sort of hand to hand fighting" though, probably a lot more likely to be the better hand to hand fighter though, no?