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| View Poll Results: Who is dumber? | |||
| The old lady |
   
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4 | 36.36% |
| The crook |
  
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2 | 18.18% |
| They are both equally unintelligent |
  
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5 | 45.45% |
| this space intentionally left blank |
  
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0 | 0% |
| Voters: 11. You may not vote on this poll | |||
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#551
11-29-2006, 04:45 PM
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Re: Should we really care??
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would any one like to try playing against a table with a few bots? for not for real money, see how you do...its all free. would you guys be interested? [/ QUOTE ] sure I would. But wouldn't that tip the site as to who the botter is? 
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#552
11-29-2006, 04:59 PM
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Re: Should we really care??
[ QUOTE ]
would any one like to try playing against a table with a few bots? for not for real money, see how you do...its all free. would you guys be interested? [/ QUOTE ] Why, so you can fine-tune them and use them against me (without my knowledge) for real money? No thanks.
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#553
11-29-2006, 05:00 PM
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Re: Should we really care??
[ QUOTE ]
would any one like to try playing against a table with a few bots? for not for real money, see how you do...its all free. would you guys be interested? [/ QUOTE ] of course id like to help you make a better bot that will take more moeny out of poker and give me nothing in return.
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#554
11-30-2006, 05:10 AM
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Re: Should we really care??
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] would any one like to try playing against a table with a few bots? for not for real money, see how you do...its all free. would you guys be interested? [/ QUOTE ] of course id like to help you make a better bot that will take more moeny out of poker and give me nothing in return. [/ QUOTE ] It is worth noting that there are significant efforts ongoing to improve poker AI, beyond their use against real money players online.
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#555
11-30-2006, 06:24 AM
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Re: Should we really care??
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] would any one like to try playing against a table with a few bots? for not for real money, see how you do...its all free. would you guys be interested? [/ QUOTE ] of course id like to help you make a better bot that will take more moeny out of poker and give me nothing in return. [/ QUOTE ] It is worth noting that there are significant efforts ongoing to improve poker AI, beyond their use against real money players online. [/ QUOTE ] Yep, I don't see the problem with developing poker AI as an academic pursuit. The hidden information aspect of Poker is a very interesting testbed for AI research and ultimately the research may bootstrap into other areas. The kind of argument that insists it's the fault of poker AI itself for ruining online poker seems almost the same as the argument presented years ago by unions against using robots in car factories and computers in newspaper printing shops (ie: because it takes away the jobs of the workers). The responsibility to defeat illegal use of poker AI lies mainly with the sites and to some extent with the player's (who can vote with their feet...). Think how a legal system works: When a bank get robbed, who is to blame? Is it the bank, the people who put their money in the bank, the guy who invented money, or the robber? a) You expect the bank to invest some of it's profits that it's making from you to protect your money, so poor security could cause the bank to be blamed. b) If we invest our money in an insecure/greedy bank who doesn't protect it's customers, then surely we have to take some of the blame? We have the option to choose the bank which we think gives us the most protection. We have to power to lobby the politicians to force the bank to install better security and also to increase the penalty for bank robbery. c) The guy who invented money can't really be blamed as it us who chooses to use the money and put it in the bank (just as the guy who conducts scientific research cannot be blamed if his research is misused by others). d) When it comes to court, can we really say the robber is 100% to blame for trying to make some easy money in the light of the fact that the bank and the customers didn't really try properly to protect the money? Juk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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#556
11-30-2006, 06:25 AM
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Re: Should we really care??
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] would any one like to try playing against a table with a few bots? for not for real money, see how you do...its all free. would you guys be interested? [/ QUOTE ] of course id like to help you make a better bot that will take more moeny out of poker and give me nothing in return. [/ QUOTE ] It is worth noting that there are significant efforts ongoing to improve poker AI, beyond their use against real money players online. [/ QUOTE ] im not sure i follow what you are saying. please tell me how improving poker ai extends to other fields.
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#557
11-30-2006, 07:40 AM
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Re: Should we really care??
[ QUOTE ]
im not sure i follow what you are saying. please tell me how improving poker ai extends to other fields. [/ QUOTE ] It's a game-theoritical problem which have proved to have far-reaching and unpredictable application in other fields. The difference is that the University of Alberta research group have a very fundemental game theory approach which is likely to produce interesting results, whereas bot-makers aren't really contributing anything at all.
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#558
11-30-2006, 07:41 AM
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Re: Should we really care??
[ QUOTE ]
c) The guy who invented money can't really be blamed as it us who chooses to use the money and put it in the bank (just as the guy who conducts scientific research cannot be blamed if his research is misused by others). [/ QUOTE ] No, but the guy who wrote Zen and the Art of Robbery out of "intellectual interest" certainly didn't help. [ QUOTE ] When it comes to court, can we really say the robber is 100% to blame for trying to make some easy money [/ QUOTE ] Yes, we can. If you steal something for your own personal gain, you are 100% to blame. The act started and ended with your conscious choice. Does it matter if you had to climb in through an open window, or disable a security alarm and smash down a door? The theft is the same. I'm surprised to find you have Bornertian ethics. Here's a couple more howlers from this moral philosophy: - He wasn't wearing a bullet proof vest, so I'm not 100% to blame for the murder of the guy I shot in the mall. - She wasn't wearing reinforced steel underwear with a lock on it, so I'm not 100% to blame for ... You get the idea.
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#559
11-30-2006, 08:39 AM
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Re: Should we really care??
The bank analogy breaks down as a comparison, when you get to the part of a law being broken. Its not really a bank rule that you can't withdraw money with a gun... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
Back to poker though... The sites also "approve" of the use of AI, so there is a real dilemma here, in actually where the line of ok becomes not OK. Which types of tools are OK and not OK... and even more to the heart of the matter, which site T&C rules are OK to not follow, and which aren't. (and I think everyone knows what I'm talking about in the last case) SO there is a real dilemma once you start saying well in specific cases there are reasons why the site T&C should not be followed.
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#560
11-30-2006, 10:19 AM
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Re: Should we really care??
I agree with your last sentence sniper.I might expand that there is no dilemma unless you cheat and are trying to find a moral middle ground to satisfy yourself.If a game has rules,follow them or dont play.Its not hard.If a site doesnt allow PT for example,you are cheating if you use it.If you continue to use it to now gain an "illegal" advantage,know that you are a cheater.There is no justification or moral middle ground i do not believe.Thus as i stated,i believe its only a dilemma if you choose to cheat.
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