Israel's Attack on Lebanon and Hezbollah

[jman220]

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This is out of hand. Too many children killed. Too many civilian deaths. Too many "mistakes".

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I agree, Hezbollah should release its hostages so that we can end this.

[Copernicus]

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This is out of hand. Too many children killed. Too many civilian deaths. Too many "mistakes".

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I agree, Hezbollah should release its hostages so that we can end this.

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Do you think that will end it, jman? I think it will take far more than that at this point.

[ACPlayer]

Well, when I dont know, I dont know.

Seems when you dont know you assume the worst.

And, yes there are other possibilities: for one the government is very new, since Syria left. Perhaps it was in discussions. Besides all that the Hezbollah has been relatively quiet for years (my understanding is that there have been more cross border transgressions by Israel over the past few years than vice versa - I am thinking of air space violations.

So, when I concede I dont know, accept it. I DONT KNOW. Learn to think in other than black and white.

[ACPlayer]

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This is out of hand. Too many children killed. Too many civilian deaths. Too many "mistakes".

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I agree, Hezbollah should release its hostages so that we can end this.

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This has little to do with hostages.

[jman220]

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Hi JMan:

I actually think there might be another reason. I don't care what the election results may have been because I don't see how you can have real democracy when the political parties each have an army that is currently shooting at their political opponents. So one possible reason for the Hamas victory is that they were a little better at intimidating the voting population then their political opponents. What are your thoughts?

Best wishes,
Mason

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My thoughts are that there are many reasons behind the failure of democracy amongst the Palestinians, and this certainly is one of them. A true "democracy" necessarily cannot allow its political parties to control their own armies/militias. The reasons for this are apparent, as you stated. If I had to list the biggest factors in failures of democracy such as what happenned with Hamas, it would go something like this:

1. Lack of Education of the Populace. In the case of the palestinians, you have a people that are not educated even close to the same standards as the West, and what passes for education can really best be described as propaganda and indoctrination into a culture of hate. (Anyone who has ever seen an English translation of some of the textbooks used to teach children in the Palestinian territories, and I have, can attest to this). I firmly believe that if Israel wants peace with the Palestinians, it absolutely must find a way to Westernize the Palestinian educational system, because it all starts there. Stop teaching the Palestinian Children to hate, and you end suicide bombing. End Suicide Bombing, and you work out a lasting peace.

2. Corrupt and Entrenched Leaders. Arafat was the perfect example of this, a man who died a millionaire many times over while the majority of his people lived in squalor. This goes back to point one, in that when you have poor education of the masses, charismatic leaders who do not benefit the public but capture the hearts of the masses through flowery rhetoric often rise to power. Almost always, when these men finally are overthrown, they are just replaced by the exact same thing, or worst. (See the modern history of every country in Africa for an example of this). Hamas is also an example of this.

3. Voter Intimidation /Sham Elections. As you pointed out, in any true democracy, political parties absolutely cannot be permitted to have their own militias. To do so allows the strength of these militias to determine the outcome as much as the intent of the voters. These armed militias is also an example of why you literally almost NEVER hear an outspoken Palestinian speak in favor of Israel or Israeli policies. Statistically speaking, there simply must be Palestinians who are pro-israel, however they cannot voice these views, because their own people would brand them as traitors and kill them. As an anecdotal story about this, I once had a long conversation with someone who used to work for Mossad. He spoke about how Israeli intelligence absolutely relies on paid informants within the Palestinian populace. He spoke about how little Mossad pays these informants, and how it would be perfectly willing to pay much more, as the information is absolutely critical, however if Mossad paid too much, it knows that these informants would be found out and killed by their own people.

4. Outside Influence. Hamas is heavily funded by other Arab countries. Some of these countries have a vested interest in seeing the situation in Israel remain unstable, and a Hamas led Palestinian Authority ensures this.

[ACPlayer]

So, Bush's entire exercise in bringing democracy to a new middle east is doomed to failure.

Well, we both agree on that, though the reasons may be different.

[jman220]

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Now, if Olmert had called him, after the kidnapping but before the war and said, let us join together to beat the Hiz -- well perhaps the Israeli position would be more moral when innocents are, completely predictably, killed.


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1. Israel has been asking Lebanon to do this for years.
2. I wouldn't be so sure that this conversation, or something like it, didn't happen. However, there is no way Lebanon would have agreed to it anyway, they won't challenge Hezbollah themselves because they know it would cause a civil war.

[Copernicus]

i dont see jman resigned to failure..he is pointing out primary reasons for past failures. If those are resolved, then its clear progress toward a lasting peace.

[jman220]

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This is out of hand. Too many children killed. Too many civilian deaths. Too many "mistakes".

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I agree, Hezbollah should release its hostages so that we can end this.

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Do you think that will end it, jman? I think it will take far more than that at this point.

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I don't think there's any way in hell Hbollah will do this, but yeah, I think there'd be some back-channel negotiations, and it would end this. (The rocket attacks would have to stop as well obviously).

[jman220]

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This is out of hand. Too many children killed. Too many civilian deaths. Too many "mistakes".

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I agree, Hezbollah should release its hostages so that we can end this.

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This has little to do with hostages.

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This has everything to do with hostages. The kidnapping of the soldiers absolutely forced Israel to respond with overwhelming force. Israel had been ignoring the rockets for weeks preceeding this, with great (and IMO unnecessary) restraint on their part.