Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest

[Justin A]

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That's what the Bible is about


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Not even close.

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Why don't you answer all of Andy's post?

[Peter666]

Geez, I wish Protestants good luck in interpreting all of that.

[bigpooch]

Obviously, the Roman Catholic Church isn't mentioned by
name nor is there any direct reference to the word church
("ekklesia" in NT Greek) between chapters 4 and 21 as far
as I can find. On the other hand, in Revelation 17, the
seven hills in verse nine could be an allusion to Rome,
but the Jewish reader of the first or second century
would think of Jerusalem.


[ Digression: It's interesting that there are three notable
cities, that are each situated on seven hills: Jerusalem,
Constantinople (now Istanbul), and Rome and the dominant
monotheism in each is different. ]


Verses 9-11:

9) "This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are
seven hills on which the woman sits.

10) They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is,
the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must
remain for a little while.

11) The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth
king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his
destruction.


Thus, the writer may be suggesting that the obvious allusion
to a city (whether it be Jerusalem or Rome) isn't the full
picture, for otherwise why is there need for a "mind with
wisdom"?

The Vatican is situated on Vatican Hill, the "eighth hill"
of Rome and during the reign of Pope Leo IV (c. 850 CE),
the city walls expanded to include it. [ The root word of
Vatican is translated "prophet" in English, so some
Protestants might even think of the Vatican as the "false
prophet". ]

Some protestants argue that the harlot in this chapter is
a reference to Roman Catholicism, and in some ways, they
could be right, but it's not the full meaning. A more
symbolic or metaphorical meaning should be suggested, just
as the churches earlier don't just refer to actual churches
but types of churches (for example, doesn't the church of
Laodicea remind us all of today's modern church?).

The seven kings don't merely refer to actual kings (as some
have strongly suggested), but types of government, the
seventh type likely to be the republic (most nations are
now, right?).

In any case, a syncretism of organized political and
religious powers, what Yeshua ("Jesus") warned about
concerning the yeast of the Pharisees and Herod in Mark
Chapter 8, will eventually be a reality. This all started
back during the reign of Constantine and will be in full
bloom someday in the future. The separation of the church
(or organized religion) and the state was and is a good, in
its present condition.

[Praxising]

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The Bible is the sacred writings of a religion. It was written by men who claimed it was the word of God. ..

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NO. Let me state this categorically so you do not forget this:

<font color="red"> NO - IT WAS NOT WRITTEN BY MEN WHO CLAIMED IT WAS THE WORD OF GOD.</font>

That clear enough? It is claimed by some men, far, far, after the fact, to be that.

[David Sklansky]

So do Catholics believe that Mormons get into Heaven by the skin of their teeth much like Protestants feel that way about Catholics?

[borisp]

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In another thread I agree that it might be plausible that God will punish atheists because he thinks their atheism is merely an excuse to defy him. In other words no atheist legitimitely disbelieves. There are ulterior motives involved. I think that is Not Ready's stance.

I go on to claim that the above does not apply to monotheists who believe in a personal God. When they disagree with, lets say Protestants, it is not due to ulterior motives but simply excusable confusion. But Protestants like Not Ready, if I understand him correctly, don't accept that claim. A slight amount of confusion is legitimate and thus excusable. Eg Catholics. But anything more isn't. Because it is again not simply confusion and ignorance but also ulterior motives.

Jews stick to their religion in the face of obvious evidence it is wrong, because they don't want to make the sacrifices Christianity demands of them. Ditto Muslims. But what about Mormons? Obviously the founders of that religion may have had ulterior motives to stray from Protestanism. And the original practitioners had a BIG possible ulterior motive. But what about now? Why don't Protestants believe the man in the street Mormon won't go to heaven if he sticks to his religion? Do they still think that it is ulterior motives that keeps these people believing in something nonsensical, or do they admit that they genuinely believe these admittedly nutty details? And if they are genuine beliefs without ulterior motives, how can Protestants think that their God/Jesus, both whom Mormon's worship and generally obey, will give them the ultimate punishment?

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Hey Dave, how come you are so ready to attack the (obviously gaping flaws in) typical religious arguments? It seems to me that you should be more focused on the legitimate attacks against your own reasoning capabilities...

Wait, I forgot. Every time you make a mistake, we aren't supposed to take you seriously. How could I be so naive. Carry on with your "discussion."

[Shandrax]

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Jews stick to their religion in the face of obvious evidence it is wrong, because they don't want to make the sacrifices Christianity demands of them.

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It seems to me that jews don't have much difficulties in abdoning their religion. Just watch the jewish scientists in this video trying to show the muslims that religion is superfluous and basically the root of all evil.

http://video.google.com/googleplayer...4804&amp;hl=en

[Peter666]

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So do Catholics believe that Mormons get into Heaven by the skin of their teeth much like Protestants feel that way about Catholics?

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Catholics don't know what the judgement of the individual soul will be upon death. It is possible for any human being, including a Mormon, to get into Heaven so long as they exhibit perfect contrition for their sins and invincible ignorance as to their choice of religion.

The point is, God will give every human being in their lifetime the necessary graces to get into Heaven. No one is prejudged. The question is whether the person will choose to cooperate with those graces or not.

[yukoncpa]

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Catholics don't know what the judgement of the individual soul will be upon death. It is possible for any human being, including a Mormon, to get into Heaven so long as they exhibit perfect contrition for their sins and invincible ignorance as to their choice of religion.

The point is, God will give every human being in their lifetime the necessary graces to get into Heaven. No one is prejudged. The question is whether the person will choose to cooperate with those graces or not.


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Hi Peter

Have you raised the bar here for Mormons? Or not? This perfect contrition of sins and invincible ignorance of choice of religion sounds like an overly rigorous standard for salvation. Would your typical good willed, but fallible Methodist be subject to the same standard?

[Peter666]

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Catholics don't know what the judgement of the individual soul will be upon death. It is possible for any human being, including a Mormon, to get into Heaven so long as they exhibit perfect contrition for their sins and invincible ignorance as to their choice of religion.

The point is, God will give every human being in their lifetime the necessary graces to get into Heaven. No one is prejudged. The question is whether the person will choose to cooperate with those graces or not.


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Hi Peter

Have you raised the bar here for Mormons? Or not? This perfect contrition of sins and invincible ignorance of choice of religion sounds like an overly rigorous standard for salvation. Would your typical good willed, but fallible Methodist be subject to the same standard?

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I think everyone is subject to the same standard: how much did they cooperate with the graces God gave? Methodists may have an inherent advantage in that their religion is closer to Catholicism than Mormonism. But on the other hand, maybe that means they will be held to a higher standard. It's impossible to say. Only God knows. We must assume everyone will be treated justly on an individual basis.