Michael Moore and socialized medicine

[karlwig]

maxtower, you wrote:
I don't know what country you are from with socialized health care, but I would be willing to bet that you pay more in taxes than I do.



I'm from Norway. In 2006 I worked full-time and payed 25% of my income in taxes. Is that much more than in the US? Of course here you pay more tax the richer you are, and I'm not very rich. I'm happy to pay my share though, and of course I take it for granted that people with more money also should give more to the society.

Still, nobody pay more than 50% in taxes maximum. So it's still plenty of room to get rich and follow your dreams. I don't know about you, but I think a guy earning $1.000.000 a year would have plenty of money left to spend on fun after paying his taxes.

[Ron Paul]

The awesomeness that is socialized dental care.

[karlwig]

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Saw an interview with Michael Moore, and he was talking about the knee-jerk negative reaction many people have to the term "socialized medicine". His argument was that health care should not be a for-profit business. Insurance companies are beholden to their shareholders to maximize their profit. This creates a natural conflict between what's good for the shareholders, and what might be best for the patient (as in, expensive treatments).

He then mentioned that we already have some socialized services in the USA, which people have no problem with. He used the example of fire departments, which provide service to everyone and are not expected to turn a profit. He argued that if fire departments were forced to maximize revenues for shareholders, it would be a terrible idea that might compromise safety in life-or-death situations. Since healthcare is also often a life-or death issue, a socialized approach, where profit concerns are removed from the equation, is the best answer.

This seemed like a reasonable argument to me. Am I wrong for thinking this?

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I think the fire department example is pretty good. It does show that where there's profit, that profit will often come first, since people love money. And to some extent that could be a bad thing when it comes to saving lives.

Just think about the police being ruled by a free market. It doesn't take an Einstein to figure out that it would not work very well. They would begin catch criminals based on which payed the most, the richest people would always get away, and sooner or later there would be no justice left.

I think all societies need some kind of system that secure that some desicions are made on a moral ground, and not by which costumer pays most. That goes for the police, that goes for fire fighters, and IMO it goes for health care too.

[kyleb]

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Explain how for-profit fire departments would be half-assed and compromise safety. Won't they want to do the job well so that they get good "business"?

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Around the turn of the last century we had for-profit fire departments. They did in fact do a half-assed job and compromised safety. That's why they were socialized.

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They were still managed by the municipal governments, and as such, ridiculously corrupt and inefficient. People seem to forget this about the 1900s.

[Capitan23]

Micheal Moore - stupid
socialized Medicine - stupid

[Dan.]

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Micheal Moore - stupid
socialized Medicine - stupid

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Oh, thanks. Who would've guessed it was that simple? /thread I guess, huh?

[tehox]

because the free market is always the best solution?

[NeBlis]

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One thing is for sure: It would benefit more people than a free market system. If you disagree with this, you don't know what you're talking about.

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It would serve more people probably, but it would be a downgrade for most, and it's not a net benefit for the individuals involved by any stretch of the word.
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Now isn't it worth paying a little extra in tax to save people's lives? Oh I forgot, they're poor. Yeah, I guess we should forget about them then.

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No ones stopping you from helping them or convincing others to help them. How about you go work on that instead of taking money out of my pocket while acting like you have some moral high ground?
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Guess what. That's EXCACTLY why countries have a social health care systems. Everybody gets treated the SAME, since no life is worth more than another.


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This is just dumb. Bill Gate's life has had a huge positive on society. Some bum with no job just takes from others. If you want to help a bum out, go ahead. Don't force me to subsidize him.
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One more thing. Yes, it costs money, but it's just a matter of priorities.

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Subjective priorities you want to enforce on others.
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For example, in the "socialist" country I live in, people with average income pay about the same tax as in the us. And still health care is free! How could this be? Well, we don't use 1/3 of our budgets on military. So if your goverment could just stop making wars for some time, you could afford free health care for all. Wouldn't that be great, instead of using that money on tanks? No?

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Instead of killing you, I'm just going to break your arm, see that's better right? Sure but I'd rather you not harm me at all in the first place.

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MY PONY TO SLOW .. you wrote just about my exact respose

[Paragon]

Socialized health care becomes a disaster if you think of the web of incentives it would create. I shouldn't have to care if someone smokes or overeats, but as soon as I have to pay everyone else's medical bills, I'm going to start caring about their personal life. I can see even more smoking bans and food bans on the horizon if we change to an institution where everyone has to worry about each other's behavior. Next thing you know there'll be a law requiring everyone to brush their teeth.

I think it's important to note how people have been calling it "free", since that's exactly how regular people will treat it too. Socialized health care is a dream for hypochondriacs. Got a cramp, or a broken fingernail, or maybe don't have friends who pay attention to your concerns? Call your doctor.

To be blunt, terminally ill people will waste enormous amounts of resources too. Over 50% of medical bills currently come from people's last 6 months of life. That is only possible because other people are already footing part of the bill. When the cost is effectively zero to use, people will obviously take maximum advantage.

As for Canada, up there animals get faster and better health care than humans. An example was when one Canadian had a horse that needed gall bladder treatment. Called the vet, he was over the next day, problem solved. Coincidentally, the fellow had the problem himself. He had to wait upwards of 14 weeks. Why? Because veterinary services aren't strangled by regulations, which allows them to avoid enormous waiting lists.

Wouldn't you say Ph D biologists probably have the same intellectual abilities as medical doctors or thereabouts? Yet strangely, biologists on average get 1/3 the salary. That should clue everyone in that something fishy is going on... Why aren't more biologists simply becoming doctors? The reasons lie in the barriers to entry in the U.S., especially from the AMA union, which has enormous influence. They love regulations that artificially create shortages in health care, therefore raising their own salaries. Want to open a new medical school, or even allow more students to go through one that is already open? Have to go ask them for permission. Want to practice medicine in the US, but you aren't a citizen? Too bad. Want to take a test and get certified, but can't speak English? Too bad.

As in so many different industries, the best advice for health care is to lift the burden of regulations and allow capitalism to do its thing. We trust greedy grocery store owners to provide us with food, and that's even more important to survival. Hopefully people realize our trust in them isn't because they're just a nicer group of guys than doctors are.

(Note: everything I wrote above is exactly ripped off an mp3 that Nielsio posted: Walter Block - Health Economics)

[NeBlis]

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I'm from Norway. In 2006 I worked full-time and payed 25% of my income in taxes.

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I think your wrong on your numbers. average personal tax in Norway is 28% plus a VAT of 23%

what if you were able to save and invest that money ?

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I'm happy to pay my share though, and of course I take it for granted that people with more money also should give more to the society.



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I thought all people were equal. why are some more responsible and some just lay around and get a check?


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Still, nobody pay more than 50% in taxes maximum. So it's still plenty of room to get rich and follow your dreams.

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it its just UNFREAKIN REAL that you are talking about stealing half of a persons life to prop up some misguided attempt at social justice. If every life in sacred and all people are equal why then is it ok to take away half of a persons monetary utility. unreal.