PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY

[Gonso]

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Will the non-online players adapt? I play only live now.

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I think most will, but not all. I for one would miss handling real chips, but I adapted well enough when I started playing online.

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There are hordes of players who ask for set-ups and blame the dealer for everything that happens to them. They even throw the cards at the dealer. They smash their chips onto the table. I don't read the internet forum on this forum but on RGP there are 'online is rigged' posts every day. I can just imagine what will happen in B&M play when the bad players keep getting beat. They are going to blame the computer. They will get suspicious that the winners are working for the house and that they are being robbed blind. They can't see the cards being shuffled and dealt and there will be those conspiracy minded people who can never be convince otherwise who aren't going to like it.

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This is all correct, of course, but you will have people that think this way no matter how the game is spread. To them, it's always someone else's fault that they're losing... as I dealer I get complaints about 'dealing bad cards' constantly. If there is no dealer to blame, as is the case with online poker, then the site must be rigged. Besides that, there's always collusion and cheating as a trusty fall-back option too.

There's just no solution to this problem, but that's fine. Let them be paranoid and complain. For all of their bitching, they keep coming back to the casino week after week just the same.

I mean seriously, you can shuffle right in front of them, and they'll watch you, and they STILL think something's up. It's like when you spin the ball in roulette they tell us not to look in the wheel, so players don't think we're cheating them (as if somehow I can aim for a certain number, lol).

[Rick Nebiolo]

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Will the non-online players adapt? I play only live now.

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I think most will, but not all. I for one would miss handling real chips, but I adapted well enough when I started playing online.

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There are hordes of players who ask for set-ups and blame the dealer for everything that happens to them. They even throw the cards at the dealer. They smash their chips onto the table. I don't read the internet forum on this forum but on RGP there are 'online is rigged' posts every day. I can just imagine what will happen in B&M play when the bad players keep getting beat. They are going to blame the computer. They will get suspicious that the winners are working for the house and that they are being robbed blind. They can't see the cards being shuffled and dealt and there will be those conspiracy minded people who can never be convince otherwise who aren't going to like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is all correct, of course, but you will have people that think this way no matter how the game is spread. To them, it's always someone else's fault that they're losing... as I dealer I get complaints about 'dealing bad cards' constantly. If there is no dealer to blame, as is the case with online poker, then the site must be rigged. Besides that, there's always collusion and cheating as a trusty fall-back option too.

There's just no solution to this problem, but that's fine. Let them be paranoid and complain. For all of their bitching, they keep coming back to the casino week after week just the same.

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In a real B&M the behavior (e.g., blaming the dealer for bad cards short of serious abuse) of the superstitious gamblers is not really a "problem" that needs to be solved; it's just something that the dealers and staff simply learn to deal with. These players believe they might have unlucky dealers but few believe the deck is stacked against them. These same players may perceive an electronic dealer as being unfairly rigged since they simply can't see the shuffle. These are the players you build games around so a wise B&M caters to their superstitions within reason.

I guess I'm just trying to say I agree with Howard's point.

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

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In a typical casino or card room SNG setup you will have very little utilization of the eTables,

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Turning Stone is using etables for SNGs with some success. When I have been there I usually see one or two tables going. These are usually $30+$6 SNG and most of the players are 18-25 and seem happy with the setup.

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It's all relative of course.

At Hawaiian Gardens they only run SNGs during days and times they aren't otherwise jammed; at HG the real estate (i.e. space available for tables) during a busy period is too precious to waste on SNGs (which tend to have a relatively large amount of down time, overhead and/or setup time).

If Turning Stone is otherwise jammed when they run SNGs on the eTables they really should be running regular games instead. But if they need SNGs to get customers to accept eTAbles then so be it. Eventually though for eTables to succeed they need to penetrate into the general ring game area. There's simply more profit there.

~ Rick

[bernie]

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Yeah, it will probably put some poker dealers out of work and dissuade others from taking it up, but most of us in AC have other games (and even if you don't, experienced dealers should have no problems learning new games fairly quickly). Same thing happened to a lot of slot people when they started doing all the conversions to cashless games... business is business.


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Except around here, if the dealers go back into the pit, they'll be back to sharing tips. Which many don't like as that could be a nice paycut for them. But then, it could just be a matter of time before the pit turns electronic altogether.

I've thought of becoming a dealer myself. The advent of these, for me, means limited future, therefore making it much less attractive. To me, it could very well be the beginning to an end of dealers. Personally, I'd trade the extra hands for a human dealer. The dealers are the ones I get along with the most in my room. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] It's the opponents I can't stand to hang with.LOL

Not to mention, I also like to handle the cards and chips along with the human element in the room.

b

[bernie]

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Will the non-online players adapt? I play only live now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think most will, but not all. I for one would miss handling real chips, but I adapted well enough when I started playing online.

[ QUOTE ]
There are hordes of players who ask for set-ups and blame the dealer for everything that happens to them. They even throw the cards at the dealer. They smash their chips onto the table. I don't read the internet forum on this forum but on RGP there are 'online is rigged' posts every day. I can just imagine what will happen in B&M play when the bad players keep getting beat. They are going to blame the computer. They will get suspicious that the winners are working for the house and that they are being robbed blind. They can't see the cards being shuffled and dealt and there will be those conspiracy minded people who can never be convince otherwise who aren't going to like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is all correct, of course, but you will have people that think this way no matter how the game is spread. To them, it's always someone else's fault that they're losing... as I dealer I get complaints about 'dealing bad cards' constantly. If there is no dealer to blame, as is the case with online poker, then the site must be rigged. Besides that, there's always collusion and cheating as a trusty fall-back option too.

There's just no solution to this problem, but that's fine. Let them be paranoid and complain. For all of their bitching, they keep coming back to the casino week after week just the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a real B&M the behavior (e.g., blaming the dealer for bad cards short of serious abuse) of the superstitious gamblers is not really a "problem" that needs to be solved; it's just something that the dealers and staff simply learn to deal with. These players believe they might have unlucky dealers but few believe the deck is stacked against them. These same players may perceive an electronic dealer as being unfairly rigged since they simply can't see the shuffle. These are the players you build games around so a wise B&M caters to their superstitions within reason.

I guess I'm just trying to say I agree with Howard's point.

~ Rick

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Very true especially if you consider many of those donators quit online because they figured it was rigged against them.

Basically, it could just be a history repeat of how online games got tougher(only a bit slower since you won't be able to multitable). Yay...

...that would suck.


I would sacrifice hands per hour for the much better games.

b

[Gonso]

I agree as far as catering to what your guests want, especially with superstitions, but I think that won't be as big an issue overall.

For example, use ShuffleMasters on most of our tables now, so the players usually don't see the physical shuffle anyway. The response to them has generally been positive since it speeds up the game a little bit, but you know, I still hear it if someone's getting crappy cards.

In any case, it wouldn't take too long to gauge guest response to the machines. If you find that a large number of players just don't want anything to do with them, then of course the casino will act accordingly.

In the slot business this issue came up when they started creating computerized slots with no physical reels, and again when they started going coinless. They used to say that the older demographic wouldn't trust or understand computerized slots, yet you see what the casino floor looks like now. Mechanical reel slots still exist, sure, but the response was pretty positive from my perspective.

I think there will always be the crowd that prefers standard tables, no doubt. I like handling chips and obviously would like to keep my weekend job. But, unlike slots, you can't play alone. I think with certain incentives like less rake and difficultly finding 'live' B&M games as opposed to computerized tables, I imagine more players would probably adapt rather than quit poker.

It's an interesting topic though. I guess we'll all have to wait and see. I don't know of any in AC yet, I'd like to see a couple of these for myself.

[BrickWall]

I've seen them in action at Turning Stone. I know when they introduced them they were hoping for $50 and $100 SnGs. They have since dropped that to $30+6 and they still have trouble getting them going. I spent about 24 hours in the poker room on a recent weekend and saw maybe 3 or 4 SnGs go. I think it'll be a tough sell. If I wanted electronic I'd play at home.

[BradleyT]

First thing I thought of when I heard about these is that like Howard said, many losing players will spread rumors that the casino can "flip a switch" and allow a particular seat to win.

[pfapfap]

These are coming. There's no avoiding it.

The primary argument against is that people like to have "real cards and chips". Maybe people right now do, but everyone here is looking at this through the filter of their own experiences. You were raised with cards and chips, you like cards and chips. Look at high schoolers today. Do you think people born after personal computers with GUIs were commonplace, who see text messaging as a natural and respected form of communication, and who have been surrounded by blinking video screens since the day they were born... you think they're going to balk at computerized tables? Hardly. They'll love the speed and accuracy.

The other argument is why leave home for something you can do at home? Well, you have cards and chips, don't you? Yet you still go to a casino.

It's not "if", it's "when". Perhaps some of the old farts will have trouble adapting, but I think you'll be surprised how quickly they do. Besides, they're going to die soon.

As a dealer, I lament this. I had no plans on this being what I do forever, but I used to fancy the idea of having a "fall-back' in old age. Silly me. Oh well, guess I just have to get better at playing. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[basstardos]

First things first, I play in Detroit @ MCC and Greektown. I thought I'd provide a little perspective on how they are used here so far.

At Greektown, it has been very hard for them to get people to sit at the tables during the day. I am not usually there at nights or on the weekend, but it seems to be used more often at that time, mainly by people who are giving poker a try for the first time. The games they like spreading the most are a 50-200 NL, a 50 + 10 (or 5, I can't remember) Sit and Stay, and a 2/4 limit game. When I was there on this past Saturday night, they got a 2/4 limit and a 1/2 limit (!) game on their two tables.

At MCC, they have actually moved the 3/6 limit games to the PokerTek tables. If you wanted to play 3/6, you have to play the etables, they don't spread them (normally that I have seen) on a staffed table. They also spread 50+10 NL SNG, 100+? NL SNG (I think 20, but it might be less), 50-200 NL, and 5/10 limit games on the tables.

My usage of the tables? (In case you are interested)
I have sat twice @ MCC. I have played in a 50+10 SNG, and at a 50-200 NL. My impression? Not bad, just like online. I do like that the people are in front of me, so I can try to get some sort of tell. I also like how you have to double-press the buttons, so user-error is minimal. However, if I am going to a casino, I want to play with an actual dealer and chips. It is as simple as that.

How would I want to see them used, as a casual poker player?
I like the way MCC is using the tables. They have forced all of the 3-6 players to switch, or play elsewhere. I do think that that is the only way to ensure their usage as close to 24/7 as possible. When I go to MCC on the weekends, at least one table is being used for 3/6 or 50-200 NL. When I go to Greektown on the weekends, they are trying to sell the hell out of it, but it is rough to sell a 2/4 game when you can play 3/6 with real chips and real dealers. I do think that using them for SNG's are a perfect use for the tables, so it can keep the tables free for cash games. Plus, you can cram many SNG's in a day, if the etables are used exclusively for them. I also think that they are very good for low limit games (5-10 and lower in the D).

That is just me.