Small stakes, live tipping advice?

[Gonso]

[ QUOTE ]
as your employer I think I will need to take a look at my options and see if perhaps I can find some workers who might "settle" for say 18/hr. You see, as a player, I am running a business, and like any good business, costs must be kept under control. It's nothing personal....

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...As your manager, I just can't justify your salary when I can get the same service for half the cost. If you dont think I can, try going on strike. It worked out well for the grocery store clerks.

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EDIT: No, you can't get the same service for half the cost. DUCY?

OK leykis, you sure seem to giving yourself a lot of titles. Let me knock you off your little power trip with a little dose of reality:

You are neither my "employer" nor my "manager." You are a patron/customer of a casino which happens to employee me. I answer to casino management, not you. At my poker table, I run the game, not you. If I don't do my job well, you can stiff me or complain to my employer, and this is a lot different than being my employer or manager.

Second, you really seem to have some personal issue with the amount dealers earn in tips, even if you're a little misinformed. Why exactly does it bother you so much? I don't know if you have issues with your own income or something, but you seem WAY too bothered by it.

Third, you seem to like making broad, baseless comments about all poker players to support your points, such as, "most players are horrible buisness owners" and "poker players in general do not understand the value of money", in order to try and support your point. Neither is true; you'll find all types of people playing in a casino to include the poker room.

Professionals of all kinds, doctors, industry leaders... I mean business owners are literally all over the place. Are you kidding? There's all kinds of data on that shows that the average casino patron is better off financially and better educated then the general population.

All of these people are tipping out of generosity, not because they're too stupid to know better.

[leykis]

[ QUOTE ]
You are neither my "employer" nor my "manager." You are a patron/customer of a casino which happens to employee me. I answer to casino management, not you. At my poker table, I run the game, not you. If I don't do my job well, you can stiff me or complain to my employer, and this is a lot different than being my employer or manager.


[/ QUOTE ]
The players pay the majority portion of your salary, and are in direct control over what you get paid. We do not pay the card room/casino, and then let them distribute the money as salary to the dealers. So given that you “answer to casino management”, how about we give one dollar out of every pot dealt to casino management and then they can distribute the money to the dealers as they see fit. Do you think they would be as generous. No, they would run some numbers. 1 table, 30 hands per hour is $30/hr. They already pay the dealers $4-6/hr so they would now decide whether the dealers should be paid $35/hr ($72800/year) or maybe they could find some good dealers who just might work for a little less than that. If so, they could keep the difference as additional profit or put the money back into the business.

But wait, the fun does not stop here. The casino management across the street runs the same numbers and realizes that they could only take 50 cents out of each pot and still pay the dealers $20/hr. But now, they could advertise the fact that they rake less than the other casino and attract more players to their room. If they are successful in this, each additional table will provide them with an additional $120/hr for the room. (That’s 30 hands per hour * $4 rake)

This is the type of logic that should be used by the players who currently pay the dealers salary, but its not. The average player thinks… “hey, I just won a $200 pot playing 4-8, if I give just $1 dollar out of the 200 chips I am now stacking I will look cheap” So he tips 4 dollars because after all what’s $4 out of this 200. Of course, he does not think, “well $4 dollars is 25% of my hourly rate if I am crushing the game, and so if I do this twice an hour I am throwing away half of my winrate so that I can provide the dealer with a salary that his “employer” would never dream of paying.” I would not say that this is out of stupidity as you suggested but rather social pressure and a temporary feeling of wealth (winning a big pot).

For this reason, this player is essentially being fleeced. I am not saying that it’s the dealer’s fault that this happens because it is not. It is they way the system is set up. That said, I don’t think you will see too many dealers complaining about it.

[ QUOTE ]
Second, you really seem to have some personal issue with the amount dealers earn in tips, even if you're a little misinformed. Why exactly does it bother you so much? I don't know if you have issues with your own income or something, but you seem WAY too bothered by it.


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To me this is not a personal issue, it’s a moral one. The moral necessity for someone to earn what the keep is something I consider to be among the highest virtues of man. This forum is not really the appropriate venue to discuss morality, for a full explanation, please see any of the philosophical works of Ayn Rand.

[Jerry D]

If you are playing LOW LIMITS then why not just get a roll of quarters and tip a quarter each pot you win? That should be fine for low limit balling.

[Gonso]

Regarding what dealers earn, here are some actual numbers:

I checked up the toke rates in Atlantic City with a couple other houses. Of the 11 casinos in the city, at least three of them had toke rates under $16 per hour this week, the lowest being $15.49 per hour. This reflects the lower end. Caesars and the Borgata are at the top and they fare much better, well into the twenties, maybe thirties at Borgata, but they ask for a lot of experience there.

In our house (a 'middle' house in terms of toke rate), poker dealers keep their own tokes and don't pool in with the table games, and I compared with two other fairly experienced dealers on the way out. We averaged out to around $19/hr each + base tonight, which is around normal for us (we fare a little better than our table games). Two of us left 1 hour and one person 2 hours early (as business slows down this happens a lot), so on average a little over 6 and a half hours out of 8. All this is pretty standard and normal to our industry.

Now based on all of that, you can see how people spouting that typical dealers make $35-$50 hour don't have any idea what they're talking about, and their error is even greater when they prorate that rate it over 40 hour weeks.

A few dealers do well (or even exceptionally well), but they tend to deal higher limit games - which are relative rarity in AC.

[Gonso]

[Cliff notes for above]

leykis thinks this is standard for what a dealer earns:
$35/hr + $5/hr base * 8 hr day = $312/day

my standard numbers in a middle of the road AC house:
$19/hr + $5/hr base * 7 hr day = $168/day

Maybe next time this thread comes up leykis will have some idea as to what he's talking about. Good luck in your weirdo moral crusade against dealers. Everyone else see you at the tables & thanks

[leykis]

Earlier this week:


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I'd settle for $30/hour

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Today:

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my standard numbers in a middle of the road AC house:
$19/hr + $5/hr base * 7 hr day = $168/day


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I know its eaisier to support your argument if you are allowed to change your mind on the facts whenever it helps your argument, but please try not to do it in the same thread. It just makes it too easy.

Dealers in California blow away your numbers.

If your numbers were correct, you would be in strong favor of the house raking 1 dollar a pot and distributing the money to the dealers.

This would keep the fish from giving away a ton of money to the dealers and keep it in play so it can go where it belongs. In my pocket.

[Brad1970]

[ QUOTE ]
Earlier this week:


[ QUOTE ]
I'd settle for $30/hour

[/ QUOTE ]

Today:

[ QUOTE ]
my standard numbers in a middle of the road AC house:
$19/hr + $5/hr base * 7 hr day = $168/day


[/ QUOTE ]

I know its eaisier to support your argument if you are allowed to change your mind on the facts whenever it helps your argument, but please try not to do it in the same thread. It just makes it too easy.

Dealers in California blow away your numbers.

If your numbers were correct, you would be in strong favor of the house raking 1 dollar a pot and distributing the money to the dealers.

This would keep the fish from giving away a ton of money to the dealers and keep it in play so it can go where it belongs. In my pocket.

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Maybe I'm a bit confused here & I didn't read every post in this thread, but when he says that he'd settle for $30 an hr, he's saying that he makes less than that. By my calculations, $19 + $5 = $24/hr...which is less than $30.

Tell me again how he is changing his argument???