limpers & button

[Goodnews]

Why?

Aaron W. touched on equity edge PF, and the only hands I see limping here are 88 and 99. A raise preflop can give us the initiative on the flop thus a little more breathing room.

Say we limp and whiff the flop, how do we respond to a flop bet on a large pot?

[Goodnews]

I'm not suggesting we bluff everyone off, does the free card play here have any value at all? Please correct me as this may be a big leak in my game.

[chiachu]

[ QUOTE ]

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Hand 1:
Preflop: Hero is button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 limpers, Hero ???.
--------------------
Hand 2:
Preflop: Hero is button with 10[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 limpers, Hero ???.
--------------------
Hand 3:
Preflop: Hero is button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 limpers, Hero ???.
--------------------
Hand 4:
Preflop: Hero is button with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 limpers, Hero ???.


[/ QUOTE ]

This thread should be a good exercise for me, since i tend to be to tight/passive in late position.

Hand 1: call
Hand 2: raise if loose, call if tighter
Hand 3: call if loose, fold if tighter.
Hand 4: raise if loose, call if tighter

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Why?

Aaron W. touched on equity edge PF, and the only hands I see limping here are 88 and 99. A raise preflop can give us the initiative on the flop thus a little more breathing room.

Say we limp and whiff the flop, how do we respond to a flop bet on a large pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm raising 99 all the time and 88 sometimes. A lot of this depends on postflop game conditions. If the game is a little too loose passive postflop, then I might just limp 88 because I know I have to show down to win. If it's super loose postflop passive, I'll raise because when I hit my set I'm going to be paid off huge. If it's aggressive postflop, I'll limp in because I don't gain enough in 'initiative' to offset having to do battle postflop in a multi-way affair. 99 also has a significantly better chance of flopping above second pair compared to 77 and lower.

Limp and whiff = fold. Raise and whiff = think about relative position and pot size. I'll peel getting around 16:1 because implied odds will often carry me the rest of the way (3 BB on the turn and river).

Edit: I want to ramble on a little more...

The decision to bet with an ace, king, or queen on the board, as long as it's the only overcard, is for value. It's not immediately clear that someone actually paired the overcard, and the pot is large enough that even if it's "somewhat likely", it's not likely enough to make betting wrong. You're not representing a monster in any way, just a hand stronger than everyone else's. I'd do this in a limped pot sometimes as well, say holding 77 flopping A64 and having the action checked to me on the button.

[Buzz-cp]

You know my OP was lik 5+ months ago, and my default play these days is probably call, raise, call, raise.

Several limpers to us on the button makes me think that 77 does have an equity advantage, so it's compelling to raise. Actually, I think any kind of raggy flop where it's checked to (e.g. J85r), I think I bet.

Fuji has good comments on why to raise or limp ATo. Makes me think reads help a lot. I think it if you can get rid of the blinds and take command a lot.

On KJs, I can't believe I ever questioned raising this hand!

Buzz

[DavidC]

Ugh. I'm disappointed. Edit: in the OP but pleased with what followed!!

Anyways, the 77 hand is a call and the JTs hand is answered in miles' preflop quiz. The worst they are the more you should be inclined to call. Vs medium-crappy or expert players you want to raise.

I'm pretty sure I've asked same questions once or twice before though so it's all good.

I feel that the other two hands are obvious raises.

[Shillx]

I'm not going to comment on the hands, but I want to say that raising on the button is less critical then raising in the CO with a playable hand. At least limping should be considered on the button while raising is the only play in the CO. Especially against really bad opponents.

Okay I did comment already. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not going to comment on the hands, but I want to say that raising on the button is less critical then raising in the CO with a playable hand. At least limping should be considered on the button while raising is the only play in the CO. Especially against really bad opponents.

Okay I did comment already. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to pipe in and say this but now I see there's no need to.

I like raising w/ all of these except AT which is usually a limp, although that decision can swing the other way depending on the quality of the limpers. If many of them are literally coming in with total random crap it's a raise.

With a pair of sevens in this spot I would like to accomplish a few things that limping doesn't do as effectively as raising:

1. I might be winning, and (presumably) many of my opponents are limping hands that contain at least one card lower than 7, (and sometimes two cards).

2. I want to build a lunker pot of I flop a set, and hopefully tie some people to it when they're drawing drastically slim.

3. I want a chance to catch a two-outer on the turn by investing half a bet before the flop.

Also, in an unopened or limped pot you guys should be raising KJs from any position regardless of the number of limpers. (And ATs and AJs)

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
Ugh. I'm disappointed. Edit: in the OP but pleased with what followed!!

Anyways, the 77 hand is a call and the JTs hand is answered in miles' preflop quiz. The worst they are the more you should be inclined to call. Vs medium-crappy or expert players you want to raise.

I'm pretty sure I've asked same questions once or twice before though so it's all good.

I feel that the other two hands are obvious raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah... I have to read this thread!

Very good thread.

I'm tired though.

But 'bump'.