when giving free cards is better than betting vulnerable hands

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isnt it good to get alot of money in when your ~80% favorite? also, youve already invested about 1/3 of your stack, so i see no reason why you shouldnt shove the turn now.

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[innerpeace]

a few people seem to be incredulous that i am able to put my opponent on a very small range after the flop. it's not like i 'looked directly into villain's soul and saw two red aces' or anything like that, but really there are a number of factors that can help narrow down his range. it would have made the initial post too long if i spent too much time elaborating on this process.

while most of it happens quite quickly by feel, there are numerous factors to support the conclusion. here are a few factors to consider.

1. i have played with villain quite a bit and know how he generally behaves when he is really trying to get a read on his opponents. in this case, i didn't feel that he was trying to get enough of a read, which he would need to be doing if he was trying to make a play, but instead i had the impression that he was playing his hole cards and more focused on not letting me read him as strong. there aren't too many legitimate hole card combinations that play this way pre and post flop.

2. villain was sitting directly to my left. this hand is the only one where i have position on him. villain has the second biggest stack at the table and i have the biggest stack. villain has ideal table position, so i don't think he is looking to take risks getting stacked here when he can sit back and wait for an opportunity when he has position on me. i don't think he calls the flop without a hand. his checking the turn only confirmed my thoughts.

for these reasons and numerous others, like taking into account what i could infer about his mindset, his table image, what i know about him in real life, etc., i was confident narrowing his range to either aces or tens. i realize it's a narrow range, but i simply felt confident in making that read.

i know that some on these boards play live and some primarily play online. i wouldn't expect the online players to understand fully, but i'm sure the better live players can relate that there are many things going on in a poker session. if you can pay attention to and attune yourself to everything happening at the table, then there are many subtle cues and overall quite a bit of information you can pick up.

imho, someone who is really good at absorbing what is happening is phil ivey, especially when he is playing his best game. i didn't think it was such a big deal to narrow my opponent's holdings down to just a few hands after the flop and am a bit surprised at the skepticism.

[innerpeace]

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Are you always giving up on turn unless it's a K?

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yes. if the turn blanks and it is checked to me, i check behind. unless i make a straight by the river, i would have been done with the hand.

[innerpeace]

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If you play like this you are giving him a chance to see the turn and the river which just cant be good.

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sehr, i agree here. villain misplayed the hand. calling on the flop was a mistake as i had enough confidence in my read that i wasn't planning on investing any more money without a hand. while i am aggressive and villain knows this, i am not foolish enough to continue in a hopeless situation.

[innerpeace]

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I think I played the hand correctly given his playing style. He just got lucky. Simple as that.


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i disagree that you played correctly. we already discussed that you shouldn't call in this situation. i think you got greedy, and it was a costly mistake. i won't deny that i got lucky. among players who have some concept of the game, luck will play a more dominant role. at the same time, based on my sentiments at the time, i don't think i would have played the hand any differently.

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but there's NO WAY he gets away from this without forking over some chips.

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let's not deal in hypotheticals here... lol.

[shootaa]

dodge 1/3 the deck and put him on exactly AA/TT... not really liking this, i would just bet the turn

[innerpeace]

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OK, I'll say it directly. I believe: This hand did not happen, you do not play high stakes poker, and the subject you bring up has been discussed at length on this board before. The guy with 4 posts who says he was the villain is most likely you, as well, and I think you probably also were behind the "Huckster" account that most here believed was Huck Seed, and then claimed to have known all along when I busted you (this means you, FSU, and you, KKF). I don't know why I care about busting trolls, but I'm just so sick of what this board is becoming that I think I'm twoplustilting. I think I'd better step away for a while. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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cero, you are entitled to your opinion even though it's incorrect. i consider myself a person of high integrity, and never appreciate when someone insinuates that i am not. of course, these are internet forums, so such skepticisms are par for the course.

i value my time and have no reason to post nonsense here. i was not aware of any discussion of this concept on these boards. there are a fair number of posts every day and i do not read them all. however, it seems that at least a few have gained some additional big-bet poker insight from this discussion, so the effort was not fruitless.

to be honest, i think these boards have become cluttered with many garbage posts. and i resent those who intentionally add to that garbage and make it harder to separate the wheat from the chaff. imho, there has been a recent lack of good strategy posts, so i thought i would take the time to contribute one. it's unfortunate that you did not benefit, but at least others did.

[TheWorstPlayer]

personally, i think this post is better suited to MSNL than HSNL where hopefully everyone would already understand this concept, despite the high stakes nature of the game. MSNLers would probably benefit a lot from seeing the EV calcs done. However, I for one appreciate the effort you put into the post and thread and enjoyed reading the discussion even if people did take the piss. I dont play much live, but even online there are certainly time and opponents where from betting pattern and timing tells you could make a similar read to the one you made.

[innerpeace]

theworstplayer, thanks for the positive post. i appreciate it. i would suspect many hsnl'ers to be familiar with this concept, but perhaps it was the specific limits that made me post it here.

i agree completely about the existence of online tells as similar considerations about timing and betting patters are some of the most relevant tells in live play. though here you have the added benefit of seeing your opponent which can often put more confidence in your read and ability to play according to it.

even online there are subtle cues like screen names, whether they have the max buy in and are reloading, how many tables they are playing, geographic location, etc.

if mods think it's appropriate, i am certainly ok with having this thread moved to msnl.

[illuminati]

[ QUOTE ]
personally, i think this post is better suited to MSNL than HSNL where hopefully everyone would already understand this concept, despite the high stakes nature of the game. MSNLers would probably benefit a lot from seeing the EV calcs done. However, I for one appreciate the effort you put into the post and thread and enjoyed reading the discussion even if people did take the piss. I dont play much live, but even online there are certainly time and opponents where from betting pattern and timing tells you could make a similar read to the one you made.

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Hi TWP,

Firstly, I don't care if you're levelling here [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

How is it bad/wrong to get it in as a huge favourite when certain rivers can kill your action? (unless maybe somebody plays on a very limited BR).