help me become a better arguer/negotiater

[ScottyP431]

You should read a book called "sleight of mouth".

The basic premiss is that to negotiate or win an argument you need to control the premiss of the argument, called the frame. You want to control the frame. You control the frame not by making arguments, but by resolving arguments.

When people argue its normally like

Person 1:X
Person 2: Y
Person 1: But what about X
Person 2: No, what about Y

Controlling the frame means setting the terms of the debate such that X or Y is more important than the other.

Simplistic example
Person 1: Lets eat at mcdonalds , their fries are crispier
Person 2; no, burger king, their fries are saltier
Person 1 controls frame: You can alwyas add more salt yourself, but can't make the fries crispier yourself, so we should go to mcdonalds

More complex example
Person 1: The iraq surge is essential to demonstrate US leadership by showing we can follow through on combat committments
Person 2: But sending more troops to Baghdad will fail and cause a civil war
Person 1 (attempts to control frame): But iraq is already in a state of civil war, therefore we should try and salvage a bad situation by saving our international deterrent image
Person 2 reframes: US image is already devestated due to the invasion and drawn out counter insurgency campaign

This is similar to the ice cream example in the movie mentioned earlier. An argument has 2 parts:

A claim- Tax cuts are good for the economy
A warrant- They stimulate investment by putting more money in the hands of the people

Most people don't understand the warrants behind their claims, so they are the weakest/easiest part to attack

[The DaveR]

Control what you're arguing about.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
Control what you're arguing about.

[/ QUOTE ]

A long time I read a book for lawyers about arguing in court which said you should never ask a question to which you don't already have the answer.

This ties in well with the previous poster's notion of controlling the premise. I remember reading someone talking about George Will, who can be very ideologic and inflexible, saying that it was impossible to beat him in an argument, no matter how bad his ideas, if you agreed to one of his premises. Once you did, your defeat followed like absolute clockwork, already mapped out, and you were done.

If you control the discussion well enough, the validity of your argument matters much less.

Often, an argument is an attempt not to get at any kind of truth, but simply to win. Vital distinction. If you want a healthy, well-reasoned discussion in which either or both parties fairly air out their ideas and both even have a chance to learn something, your approach could be vastly different than if the most important thing is winning.

[Big Poppa Smurf]

gamblore,

you seem to have really bad luck with salespeople. Try to haggle with people who run mall kiosks, they are pushovers.

[gamblore99]

big poppa smurf,
ya, Its not just them. Looking over my negotiation history, I have lost a fair amount of monetary arguements (all fairly small) with friends/aquantences/landlords. And most of the time, its because they do what evan, daver, scotty, and blarg are talking about. The money in these things doesn't really bother me, but the feeling like I have been takin advantage of really does bug me.

[12ressiMorP]

If you have enough knowledge on a subject, you can argue either side of it and be right.

[guids]

[ QUOTE ]
If you have enough knowledge on a subject, you can argue either side of it and be right.

[/ QUOTE ]



No you cant.

[12ressiMorP]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you have enough knowledge on a subject, you can argue either side of it and be right.

[/ QUOTE ]



No you cant.

[/ QUOTE ]

No you can.

[guids]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you have enough knowledge on a subject, you can argue either side of it and be right.


[/ QUOTE ]



No you cant.

[/ QUOTE ]

No you can.

[/ QUOTE ]



2 + 2 = 5

[12ressiMorP]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you have enough knowledge on a subject, you can argue either side of it and be right.


[/ QUOTE ]



No you cant.

[/ QUOTE ]

No you can.

[/ QUOTE ]



2 + 2 = 5

[/ QUOTE ]

No, 2 + 2 = 4. See, I win.