It's about time we had this discussion

[Tickner]

I think you can, but it won't make much of a difference.

By raising the same amount each time (4BB + 1BB per limper - or whatever) makes it impossible to read your hand preflop. When you start raising different amounts based on what you have, you run the risk of people getting reads on you preflop.

Sklansky recommends that not only should you change your preflop bets - but that it is necessary. Its explained pretty well in his book. I think that by raising different amounts we can maybe extract more from weaker players because they wont understand anyway - most of SSNL players wouldn't catch on to what you are doing.

However there are a few regulars that probably would, and so I guess the decision comes down to how you incorporate it into your game. A strategy I was playing around with was to randomly choose between a 3,4,5, or 6 BB raise preflop. Except, I would also raise AA/KK/QQ to 6 every time (so I guess it wasnt COMPLETELY random). So it appeared that I raised hands randomly, but it was weighted.

If you are going to raise diff amounts preflop, I think you need to follow a similar strategy. ALWAYS raising JJ-AA/AQs+ to 5BB preflop, PPs to 3, and everything else to 4, WILL get noticed after a while.

Just my thoughts.

[Minnie Man]

In position, I think a good way to go for me and most people would be the 4x+1x formula when open raising. I find it more interesting about how much to raise when OOP. Let me give an example hand.

You are in the BB with QQ in a 6max NL50 game. MP and Button limp. SB folds. Now using the 4x+1x formula, I should raise to 4BB+ 2BB = $3.00. Correct? MP and Button call. I am immediately at a disadvantage because I am OOP. Villains announced weak hands because they only limped. With a premium hand, the villains would have raised.

I have to offset my post-flop disadvantage by making villains pay to draw out on me. If I raise only the 6BB here and MP calls, the button is sure to call. So now, I will be playing a good hand OOP, but a hand that can be trash after an A or K hits the flop, or if a drawy board flops. I will be playing this hand OOP to two players. If I raise more, I will build a bigger pot with most likely the best PF hand. I must punish the limpers by making them pay more to draw out on me.

We sometimes call a PF raise IP with SC, small PP, etc because we have position. We have an advantage. Would you call a PF raise IP with SC if you and villain had 100BB stacks and 20/10/3 villain PF raises to 8BB-10BB? No. You are paying too much to try and draw out on a premium hand. Would you min raise A-K from the BB after 4 limpers? No. If you do, you are just begging to get drawn out on by the limpers. You need to make them pay to see a flop when you have a premium hand. Only raising the standard raise OOP is giving villain an advantage. If I raise OOP, I am announcing I have a good hand (AJs+, TT+, AQo+) and it is almost always the best hand PF. There is not much deception here. Villain knows if I am OOP and raising, I am most likely not doing this with SC and other speculative hands. This is another advantage villain can have on us PF. So, being OOP and clearly defining our hand with an OOP raise gives villain tons of information. Therefore, raising more than 4x+1x OOP after a few limpers is a must.

[einherjar]

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I mix it up a little, too. it's also really dependent on stack sizes and villains.

if you know villains will cal 7BB w/ their marginal hands that makes more sense than raising to 4. And if we have 200BB stacks raising to 4BB w/ your AA is begging him to play 2 cards and stack us, IMO.

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Try not stacking of postflop with AA...(you know occasionally fold it)

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Go read the post about flaming. Seriously. I'm hurt and offended. I try to teach you how to be a better player and I'm mocked. Nice.

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That is a valid point succinctly put, not a flame. Or was I just leveled?

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What I was saying that I think he misunderstood is that the 4BB + 1 'rule' applies when the stacks are roughly 100BB. If everyone is 400BB deep making a 4BB pfr is a huge mistake. So if we are 200BB deep I think we can play the game bigger with our 1 pair hands (and perhaps smaller w/ our speculative ones)

[74o_Clownsuit]

When I 3-bet someone's opener in position my standard is 3x their raise. ($7 raised to $21 for example) Assuming 100bb stacks, this doesn't offer good pot odds or good implied odds (assuming I play decently postflop lol [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]) and builds a HU pot nicely. It doesn't cost THAT much and I'll have the rest of the hand to work my position and get into some good +EV lines in a big pot.

When I 3-bet out of the blinds (not nearly as often for obvious reasons) I make it 4x. I'm discouraging action because I'll be out of position postflop, but the times I take it down with a c-bet the pot will be an ample size. Also, the hands I 3-bet with out of the blinds are a much tighter range than in the CO or BU, but because I won't be able to milk position, I need to build a pot, and so I'm building it NOW.

Note: Kinda a hijack as the thread is about varying bet sizes and I'm talking about rr situations. As it deals with sizes, you can see I stick to a pretty hard-set raize-size rule with the above situations. I have been known to very *occasionally* change bet-sizing just a tad in a pot or two. It's also hard to examine those situations in a vacuum, as alot of my pfrr is geared towards establishing image/meta and not for the natural "value" of the play itself.

[74o_Clownsuit]

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I think you can, but it won't make much of a difference.

By raising the same amount each time (4BB + 1BB per limper - or whatever) makes it impossible to read your hand preflop. When you start raising different amounts based on what you have, you run the risk of people getting reads on you preflop.

Sklansky recommends that not only should you change your preflop bets - but that it is necessary. Its explained pretty well in his book. I think that by raising different amounts we can maybe extract more from weaker players because they wont understand anyway - most of SSNL players wouldn't catch on to what you are doing.

However there are a few regulars that probably would, and so I guess the decision comes down to how you incorporate it into your game. A strategy I was playing around with was to randomly choose between a 3,4,5, or 6 BB raise preflop. Except, I would also raise AA/KK/QQ to 6 every time (so I guess it wasnt COMPLETELY random). So it appeared that I raised hands randomly, but it was weighted.

If you are going to raise diff amounts preflop, I think you need to follow a similar strategy. ALWAYS raising JJ-AA/AQs+ to 5BB preflop, PPs to 3, and everything else to 4, WILL get noticed after a while.

Just my thoughts.

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Things like this are alright, but the problem is that against observant opponents, you CANNOT raise those big pairs to 6x every time! You may think you're "disguising" by occasionally raising a SC, SA etc to 6x but that's not the point. The point is that when you raise any amount less than 6x, your opponents know you can't have a big pair!

[ajmargarine]

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Now obviously I accept that one of the biggest problems with this is that for the 12 tabling meow chows (of which I admit I am one), this requires a lot more thought

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I've been trying some varying lately, dan. And this is the biggest problem I've been having. I only 6 table, and I can't remember which table I'm doing what at. So, I'm leaning more towards meowchowing atm.

[74o_Clownsuit]

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Now obviously I accept that one of the biggest problems with this is that for the 12 tabling meow chows (of which I admit I am one), this requires a lot more thought

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I've been trying some varying lately, dan. And this is the biggest problem I've been having. I only 6 table, and I can't remember which table I'm doing what at. So, I'm leaning more towards meowchowing atm.

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This is also a problem of mine.

[carrotsnake]

fwiw, y'all do know I was saying to raise more BBs oop and less in position right ? <3

[aislephive]

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I mix it up a little, too. it's also really dependent on stack sizes and villains.

if you know villains will cal 7BB w/ their marginal hands that makes more sense than raising to 4. And if we have 200BB stacks raising to 4BB w/ your AA is begging him to play 2 cards and stack us, IMO.

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Soooo wrong.

[TheSalche]

From what I've seen, the player pools don't seem to get small enough until probably 200NL before you start playing against the same people constantly, and most of the regulars there are 820895 tabling, so they might not notice exactly what you are raising 3x or 5x with, etc. Plus they have to see you get to showdown to actually know what you had.

I've got ~10K hands of 50 and 25 NL under my belt right now, and I only have 7 or 8 players who I've played 200 or more hands with, and even that is a really small # of hands.