Fencing- what weapon is the most fun?

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
Could anyone tell me more about the role of leg strength and spring in fencing? I imagine it can be tremendously important, but wonder if my naturally slow legs and flat ass would be a bigger handicap in one type of swordplay than another?

[/ QUOTE ]

STRONG legs will help you have a big lunge. I have really strong legs and when they aren't tired it feels like I can lunge to the other side of the strip.

However, slow legs or legs with poor endurance is absolute death in saber. You can get away with average leg speed at low level foil/epee, but if your wheels aren't turning fast enough in saber you might as well just make it easy on yourself and stand still with your guard down.

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
Saber and Foil fencers don't really dig Epee, because of the lack of right of way. Foil fencers think Saber fencers are lunatics, and Epee fencers think right of way is silly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if I'm alone in this, but I would absolutely love to fence Epee specifically BECAUSE of the lack of right of way. I *HATE* right of way in Saber (probably because of my skill level, though). I just hate being limited to attacking only with the point and not so much importance being placed on mobility, which is why I fence Saber over foil/epee.

[gamblore99]

[ QUOTE ]
However, slow legs or legs with poor endurance is absolute death in saber. You can get away with average leg speed at low level foil/epee, but if your wheels aren't turning fast enough in saber you might as well just make it easy on yourself and stand still with your guard down

[/ QUOTE ]

Today I had my first practice with saber. My leg work is pretty terrible and the coach took me aside to practice keeping my distance between legs, and making sure my body was facing forward, no sparring which was disappointing. i also didn't realize that there is a much greater chance of getting injured with a saber, which I do not like. Hopefully it gets better, as I miss foil.

-I'm guessing i will adapt soon, or get placed back in foil if I don't.

[gurgeh]

I'm not really sure what your point is then. You wrote "I love the idea of any target being available and by any method. This seems to me much closer to any reasonable idea of combat." But then you said you thought sabre was the most "serious" weapon. Your above description applies to one weapon only, and that's epee.

As for the role of leg strength, it's kind of like the role of arm strength in determining how many pullups you can do. The determining factors will not just be the size of your muscles, but whether you are a big fat fatty. That said, I've known some surprisingly quick fatties in fencing.

In any case, there's no way you'll know until you try the movement itself. Aldo Nadi (excellent Italian fencer) believed that flexibility was more important, and that guys with giant muscles might even find that these got in the way. I think he was exaggerating, but the point is this: Big muscles don't necessarily make for quick muscles. If you can advance or retreat fast, that's nice. If you can switch from one to the other like lightning, that's how you win.

I guarantee you that's how Anacardo makes his counterattacks successful.

[gurgeh]

"Much greater"? I don't know about that. Keep your guard out and your weapon hand will be safe. If I had to guess which weapon had the most injuries, it would be epee. I wasn't kidding when I mentioned jamming a long, heavy piece of metal into your opponent, and infighting can get really crazy this way. Most injuries occurring on my team at Boston University were due to a) not keeping the guard in the correct position and getting hit in the hand, b) not wearing a cup, c) people acting stupid and hitting harder than they knew they should. I don't know what injuries he's referring to, but if you approach this with some good sense, listen to your coach, and maintain your stretching exercises, you can probably avoid anything serious.

As for weapon type, which we keep coming back to, I say you should stick with my least favorite weapon, the foil. I say this because a) you seem to like it, and b) it is BY FAR a better jumping off point than either of the other weapons. It will force you to learn the greatest blade control, while teaching you how to take advantage of right of way.

It was mentioned that sabre fencers are lunatics (we are) and right of way is silly (it is). If you become a lunatic or decide you hate right of way, you will have put yourself in the best position to make that change. But keep on keepin' on, and I bet your coach will actively guide you in this endeavor.

[gurgeh]

[ QUOTE ]
-I'm guessing i will adapt soon, or get placed back in foil if I don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

I forgot to add: Expect to suck at first. Your footwork is not weapon-specific, and it takes time to learn, like anything else. When you get it down, though, you will find yourself able to be far, far more aggressive.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not really sure what your point is then. You wrote "I love the idea of any target being available and by any method. This seems to me much closer to any reasonable idea of combat." But then you said you thought sabre was the most "serious" weapon. Your above description applies to one weapon only, and that's epee.

As for the role of leg strength, it's kind of like the role of arm strength in determining how many pullups you can do. The determining factors will not just be the size of your muscles, but whether you are a big fat fatty. That said, I've known some surprisingly quick fatties in fencing.

In any case, there's no way you'll know until you try the movement itself. Aldo Nadi (excellent Italian fencer) believed that flexibility was more important, and that guys with giant muscles might even find that these got in the way. I think he was exaggerating, but the point is this: Big muscles don't necessarily make for quick muscles. If you can advance or retreat fast, that's nice. If you can switch from one to the other like lightning, that's how you win.

I guarantee you that's how Anacardo makes his counterattacks successful.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know nothing about fencing, and interpreting the jargon in this thread involves some guesswork for me, but I was kind of thinking I might like epee, as you say. I don't even know what the idea of "right of way" is, but it just sounds like something restrictive that I wouldn't like. I'd rather take right of way from someone else by force than give it to them, when it comes to what that term sounds like it might mean, in my head anyway. What it really means, I don't know.

I know that fencing is a sport, but I like the idea of it not being encumbered by too many of the types of rules that close down your natural attacks and reactions.

On leg strength, I have endurance, and spring in my calves, but am not a good high jumper -- I can shuffle from foot to foot and dance around quite well in martial arts sparring, but to make my lunges successful, I have to rely a great deal on timing because my legs are all slow twitch fibers.

I'm curious to find out what that really translates to in terms of how well I'd fence and how good I could get. Hopefully one day I will have the chance to find out.

[mosta]

if you're well over 6 feet, epee--and not sabre. and if you're well under 6 feet, not epee. do they still have former world champions showing up to coach at random Div III programs? (I remember a meet at Baruch where most of the schools had total scrub teams, but there were 3 or 4 world champions in the room (from Poland, Bulgaria, and USSR).) if so, do the weapon your coach went to the Olympics in. problem with foil is that it is the only weapon NY high schools compete in (this used to be true, at least). so to get a spot on the foil squad you're most likely to have to compete with guys who fenced it since they were 2. problem with sabre, at least 10-15 years ago, is they had gotten beyond ridiculous with abuse of the right of way rule. every single damn touch they'd hop forward at the same time and tap each other on the side at the same time, as if they had agreed not do that and not fence until they had priority. foil was also getting a bit extreme with body-forward but blade-withdrawn attacks (think of the absurdity of this strategy with real weapons). I think it was Nazlymov's fault. Tho it was cool to see him around (and his son was at Columbia at the time so I saw him too).

[mosta]

[ QUOTE ]

I know nothing about fencing, and interpreting the jargon in this thread involves some guesswork for me, but I was kind of thinking I might like epee, as you say. I don't even know what the idea of "right of way" is, but it just sounds like something restrictive that I wouldn't like. I'd rather take right of way from someone else by force than give it to them, when it comes to what that term sounds like it might mean, in my head anyway. What it really means, I don't know.

[/ QUOTE ]

someone mentioned above that foils weren't carried into war. well foils weren't real weapons. they were specifically practice versions of an epee. (note the insufficiency of the hand guard on a foil.) (I don't mean that in any kind of derogatary way.) right of way comes from foil (practice) fencing. the theory is that if you were coming at me with a real point, I would defend myself from possible death before I would consider trying to hit you. so in foil if you start an attack, and I see that I can hit you first but in such a way that I still let you hit me (second), I would not get credit for my hit. because in theory, if it were real, I should never make a suicide attack that ends up with both of us dead. (remember, this is supposed to be training for dueling.)

the problem with this rule is that it can be abused. no surprise there. with you knowing what I just told you, now when you attack you, will move forward with your body but withhold your weapon, keep it back. you know you can't be coutnerattacked. so you can wait and force me to commit myself on defense first. this is also unrealistic. you would never attack with your weapon held back in real life, inviting a counterattack that you intend to ignore.

so in foil and sabre you get unrealistic attacks with the weapon held back. in epee you get unrealistic attacks where the guy with the lead in the bout is willing to play for a double (simultaneous) touch. both are unrealistic. kind of not surprising since they don't use real weapons. one way to pick your weapon is if one version of unrealism offends you more than the other.

I'd say sabre abuses the right of way rule (or lack thereof) the least--with regard to what I just explained--because the real effect of a counterattack in the bout tended to most closely match what the rules called it. what I mean is that counterattacks that were clearly crappy tended to be the ones that lost points on right of way. and awesome counterattacks would tend to stop the opponent in his tracks, even though they didn't have right of way. so you could start second but be so much faster that it was clear that the point was yours--and either the other guy just stopped, or hit you so much later that you know in real life he would have fallen over already and the judge gives you point for counterattack in time. (we had a national level sabre guy on our D3 team. he did awesome counterattacks.) but then as I said in an above post, sabre later started to abuse the right of way rule more than foil, kind of just because they wanted to fence with priority. which is another wrinkle I won't get into.

but having accused sabre of abuse twice, I shouldn't underplay foil right of way abuse. in the mid 90s at least, it got to the point that in foil they'd "attack" with their blade virtually pointing backwards over their left shoulder. eventually the guy retreating would flinch under the pressure and put a parry out there, and then the "attacker" would literally whip his blade--like a fishing rod, super-flexible fishing rod--so it flexed, around the parry (or around the, losing, counterattack) and his point flicked on target. and this was at the Olympic level. not just in screwing-around collegiate fencing.

side note. sabre only went electric (in the US) during my senior year. that changed a lot.

[gurgeh]

It's late and I can't sleep, and this thread got me all worked up about fencing, so here's a tasty link for you all:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...ideo&hl=en

2005 Men's sabre championship. Check out the parry-riposte at 4:30.