Prop bet: Bigger/stronger vs smaller/weaker guy w/wrestling training - Page 5

jaydub · #41 09-06-2006, 10:46 PM

chump,

At this point OP should be worried about risk minimization. A real fight is the worst possible idea.

J

jokerthief · #42 09-06-2006, 10:51 PM

For the record I wrestled in HS. You only have a 25 pound weight advantage while being 5 inches taller. I am willing to bet that your opponent is stronger than you where it counts eg core, hips, and leg strength. He will be much harder to take down than you because of his height and you will be a huge easy target for him. He will also, most likely, have your ass totally kicked when it comes to cardio. This is the most important aspect in wrestling aside from skill and 4 years of HS training will last through many years of slacking off. You are at a definate disadvantage but the best thing you can do now until the match is to train your cardio as much as you can. I wouldn't do this by jogging but instead do interval training and rope jumping.

NoahSD · #43 09-06-2006, 11:18 PM

Wrestler wins near 100%. I was a wrestler in high school, and I like to wrestle around with my non-wrestler friends. I basically always win regardless of weight, and I totally suck.

Assani Fisher · #44 09-06-2006, 11:21 PM

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I actually disagree with a lot of what has been said. I wrestled for one year in HS. I wasn't an all star or anything mostly because I didn't really take it seriously(only did it to get in shape, not so much for the competitive aspect). There were 2 or 3 very skilled guys who had wrestled for a long time. However with everyone else, it pretty much came down to strength and athleticism imo. A lot of wrestling basics are intuitive and natural...stuff like keeping a low center of gravity and leverage. While some advanced moves take a long time to master, I don't think that the basics of wrestling are that hard to comprehend even in your very first match. I think that if you are stronger and quicker and wrestle somewhat conservatively(i.e. don't rush in and be willing to take your time in a long match) then you stand a decent shot.

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His friend wrestled "all through high school" and while not a state champ was "better than average". He has no chance.

natedogg

[/ QUOTE ]I wrestled against guys who had done it all throughout HS and did fine in my very first few days. And then I wrestled the one guy who was a state champ and had done it for years and lost within seconds. Also since I havn't done it in years, I've forgotten a lot of the specifics of the techniques. I really don't think this is the mismatch that everyone is making it to be. A lot of wrestling is strength, quickness, agility, etc.

Assani Fisher · #45 09-06-2006, 11:22 PM

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I actually disagree with a lot of what has been said. I wrestled for one year in HS. I wasn't an all star or anything mostly because I didn't really take it seriously(only did it to get in shape, not so much for the competitive aspect). There were 2 or 3 very skilled guys who had wrestled for a long time. However with everyone else, it pretty much came down to strength and athleticism imo. A lot of wrestling basics are intuitive and natural...stuff like keeping a low center of gravity and leverage. While some advanced moves take a long time to master, I don't think that the basics of wrestling are that hard to comprehend even in your very first match. I think that if you are stronger and quicker and wrestle somewhat conservatively(i.e. don't rush in and be willing to take your time in a long match) then you stand a decent shot.

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this is very wrong

[/ QUOTE ]care to explain why. I'm speaking from personal experience.

Assani Fisher · #46 09-06-2006, 11:23 PM

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For the record I wrestled in HS. You only have a 25 pound weight advantage while being 5 inches taller. I am willing to bet that your opponent is stronger than you where it counts eg core, hips, and leg strength. He will be much harder to take down than you because of his height and you will be a huge easy target for him. He will also, most likely, have your ass totally kicked when it comes to cardio. This is the most important aspect in wrestling aside from skill and 4 years of HS training will last through many years of slacking off. You are at a definate disadvantage but the best thing you can do now until the match is to train your cardio as much as you can. I wouldn't do this by jogging but instead do interval training and rope jumping.

[/ QUOTE ]agreed completely about cardio. I assumed that the non-wrestler was stronger in every area, quicker, a better overall athlete, and had better cardio. Thats why I thought it'd be closer than others think.

Performify · #47 09-06-2006, 11:46 PM

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agreed completely about cardio. I assumed that the non-wrestler was stronger in every area, quicker, a better overall athlete, and had better cardio. Thats why I thought it'd be closer than others think.

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How you saw it is basically what the OP said: non-wrestler works cardio 2-3x per week, lifts 2-3x per week, is in shape. wrestler was in shape back in the day and has training but does not work out.

Assuming Unoriginalname has significantly superior cardio, he's got a better chance than a lot would give him credit. Key is going to be getting the fight to go longer than about 30 seconds though. The wrestler is certainly going to have a significant edge for the first minute but cardio will come in to play quicker than most people think here.

its definately not a guaranteed loss. I'd say you're definately no worse than a 3:1 dog, assuming that you've got pretty significant edges in strength and conditioning. depending on your edge and his pudginess you could be as high as even money.

Keep your center of gravity low at all times, even when you're on the ground build a solid base and stay low. Try to tie him up and force him to struggle against you. Don't try to win the fight in the first two minutes at all: just concentrate on keeping him from winning the fight and trying to get him to burn his energy.

jokerthief · #48 09-07-2006, 12:09 AM

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agreed completely about cardio. I assumed that the non-wrestler was stronger in every area, quicker, a better overall athlete, and had better cardio. Thats why I thought it'd be closer than others think.

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How you saw it is basically what the OP said: non-wrestler works cardio 2-3x per week, lifts 2-3x per week, is in shape. wrestler was in shape back in the day and has training but does not work out.

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The thing is that doing cardio 2-3 times a week and lifting the same doesn't necessarily mean anything. The functional strength that one needs for wrestling isn't going to be gotten by most strength training routines. Most people weight train slow twitch type lifts (high weight, low rep) and that isn't very useful for combat. A HS wresler for 4 years (that is describes as good) will have developed a lot of explosive muscle strength and muscle endurance. This is why I am willing to bet that the OP is seriously underestimating the strength of his opponent. The fact that he is also 5 inches taller means that his center of gravity is going to be less than his opponent, meaning that he would have to be stronger for all things to be equal anyway. Also, he would need to be significantly stonger than him to make up for the disparity in technique.

Performify · #49 09-07-2006, 12:10 AM

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The thing is that doing cardio 2-3 times a week and lifting the same doesn't necessarily mean anything. The functional strength that one needs for wrestling isn't going to be gotten by most strength training routines. Most people weight train slow twitch type lifts (high weight, low rep) and that isn't very useful for combat. A HS wresler for 4 years (that is describes as good) will have developed a lot of explosive muscle strength and muscle endurance. This is why I am willing to bet that the OP is seriously underestimating the strength of his opponent. The fact that he is also 5 inches taller means that his center of gravity is going to be less than his opponent, meaning that he would have to be stronger for all things to be equal anyway. Also, he would need to be significantly stonger than him to make up for the disparity in technique.

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All very true.

Basically comes down to your actual ability to estimate the true fitness level of your friend. Race him up some stairs on your way to the gym to settle the bet - if he's huffing and puffing after the first two flights you're no more than a slight underdog unless he's sandbagging [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I still don't think you have "no chance" though. If this is a serious prop bet, get the guy to lay you 3:1 odds or whatever he'll lay and you should be OK.

traz · #50 09-07-2006, 12:14 AM

I've wrestled and done BJJ, and I can tell you that after 1 year of training, I could out wrestle the big guys who were new to the gym. I'm a very small guy.

I think alot of it depends on how you were trained as a wrestler. Someone with shoddy training isn't going to be very good after a year, and I assume some high schools have poor programs. However someone with good training is going to demolish the average person, even with a size advtange.

The next point I'd like to make, is that the wrestler has a huge advantage in a WRESTLING MATCH (which the OP said it was). However, if you turn this into a "street fight", then imo, the big guy starts to gain more ground. Rule set is important here.

And lastly, to those talking about cardio...jokerthief is pretty correct. Exposiveness is what matters, not whether or not someone can go for a 2 hour run. Someone who has done alot of wrestling will naturally have that explosive stamina, and it is very important.