SSNL Common Spots #1

[Jouster777]

[ QUOTE ]
Well the only way this can be true is if you get it all in preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not the only way...but I think its related to that. You are much more likely to get it all in if stacks are short. If you raise preflop then your stack to pot ratio is reduced and you are more likely to get it all in sooner.

The shorter the stack the greater the effect but there should be some effect with anything less than infinite stacks.

I think this is a point made in NLTP but I need to look it up. It goes against the maxim "avoid playing big pots when OOP" and I haven't thought about it enough to reconcile these concepts. I'll try to look it up and give it more thought...hopefully someone will pop in here and make it easier for me.

[fish43]

What do you do with

1) AJo - re-raise $5
2) A4o - fold
3) K5s - fold
4) 99 - re-raise $5
5) 76s - call
6) J8o - fold
7) 73o - fold

[NewUser2006]

Jouster,

It does take away the positional disadvantage if, like you said, you are short. But you need to be short enough to get it all in on the flop or turn.

If you've got 100bb stacks at the start of the hand, raising preflop might actually INCREASE your disadvantage because you have to make the same decisions for much more money.

[Jouster777]

[ QUOTE ]
Jouster,

It does take away the positional disadvantage if, like you said, you are short. But you need to be short enough to get it all in on the flop or turn.

If you've got 100bb stacks at the start of the hand, raising preflop might actually INCREASE your disadvantage because you have to make the same decisions for much more money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see your point and agree its a weak effect with 100+BB stacks.

However, going back to the hand in question, I think I am well ahead of both villains' ranges here. I expect the raise will either fold out both players or I'll be HU vs. a TAG (BTN) with a drawing hand. Now the PFR significantly reduces BTN's implied odds if we both get a piece of the flop.

This is more of a routine negative implied odds effect but I think the OOP PFR adds something.

[lorez]

1) AJo - raise
2) A4o - fold
3) K5s - fold
4) 99 - raise
5) 76s - call
6) J8o - fold
7) 73o - fold

[wallywojo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well the only way this can be true is if you get it all in preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not the only way...but I think its related to that.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you do not get it all in preflop; then you have to make a decision about what to do before anyone else in this hand. That makes you out of position.

[FeNeF]

[ QUOTE ]
If you do not get it all in preflop; then you have to make a decision about what to do before anyone else in this hand. That makes you out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]
He's saying the disadvantage of being OOP is lessened, not negated.

[bilbo-san]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Jouster,

It does take away the positional disadvantage if, like you said, you are short. But you need to be short enough to get it all in on the flop or turn.

If you've got 100bb stacks at the start of the hand, raising preflop might actually INCREASE your disadvantage because you have to make the same decisions for much more money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see your point and agree its a weak effect with 100+BB stacks.

However, going back to the hand in question, I think I am well ahead of both villains' ranges here. I expect the raise will either fold out both players or I'll be HU vs. a TAG (BTN) with a drawing hand. Now the PFR significantly reduces BTN's implied odds if we both get a piece of the flop.

This is more of a routine negative implied odds effect but I think the OOP PFR adds something.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's player dependant, for sure. But if you think that merely having the button gives that player mad magic poker skillz than that's crazy thinking.

Most flops miss most players. The Button is unlikely to have a pocket pair. Therefore, raising and C-betting will take this down a ton. Way more than enough times to be profitable.

No one said you have to invest 100 BBs if the button wakes up post flop.

And your earlier comment regarding implied odds makes no sense. The tighter you are raising out of the blinds, the better the implied odds you offer villains. If you won't raise AJ in a limped pot, than your range is pretty narrow.

[Jouster777]

[ QUOTE ]
It's player dependant, for sure. But if you think that merely having the button gives that player mad magic poker skillz than that's crazy thinking.

Most flops miss most players. The Button is unlikely to have a pocket pair. Therefore, raising and C-betting will take this down a ton. Way more than enough times to be profitable.

No one said you have to invest 100 BBs if the button wakes up post flop.

And your earlier comment regarding implied odds makes no sense. The tighter you are raising out of the blinds, the better the implied odds you offer villains. If you won't raise AJ in a limped pot, than your range is pretty narrow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that directed to me?...I've taken the pro-PFR position.

My point was we are ahead of villain's range and need to REDUCE villains implied odds by making a PFR.

I agree that the PFR also helps in the play by having the initiative.

[lawloser]

[ QUOTE ]
This is an idea I originally tried in the SnG forum, but it didn't really work out. I think it's probably better suited to SSNL. Worth a try anyway..
Basically every so often I will post a hypothetical yet fairly common situation, and see if we can get some good discussion going.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $110.65
UTG+1: $265.45
CO: $114.20
Button: $186.30
Hero: $98.50
BB: $128.15

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, CO folds, Button calls,

UTG+1 is a loose 60/5 callstation donkey. Button is a 15/10 multitabler and plays reasonably well postflop. BB is a 9/3 nit.

What do you do with

1) AJo
2) A4o
3) K5s
4) 99
5) 76s
6) J8o
7) 73o

[/ QUOTE ]

(1) 50% raise, 50% complete. Don't want to be raised out of the hand by a limp raise. A-J is also a marginal hand and I prefer to have a small flop when out of position.

(2) fold; not much value in this hand. Your basically praying for two pair or a straight.

(3) fold;

(4) raise; probably to 6 with hopes of someone calling. Hope to spike a set and stack someone who hits an overcard. Continuation bet flop regardless.

(5) raise 50% complete 50%; same amount as (4) and same logic

(6) fold; garbage hand

(7) fold; garbage hand