"I have a big hand and pot odds. I fold" - Page 5

gumpzilla · #41 05-04-2006, 12:59 PM

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What I'm trying to get across is that calling on very ugly boards with good odds "because I have kings" when villain has been repping the nuts every step of the way is pretty overrated.

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It seems a little different when "kings" are the third nuts and you're getting 3ish to 1, but whatever.

uclabruinz · #42 05-04-2006, 01:27 PM

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Meh. Sorry guys, I was trying to make a point but obviously picked a too far out there hand for it.

edit: did I mention (I know I did to you, heh) that way back at the start of my poker career, tommy angelo was my role model and I wound up check/calling quads 3 times once? That was fun.

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Don't apologize that some don't get it. A crucial skill lacking in some of the best players is on display here, and it isn't your fault some are unable to pick up on it.

And good god people, don't underestimate the value of saving 8BBs and playing on. "I'll have nothing left so I might as well call" when the truth is you'll have 8BBs is just so bad, and yet so prevalent. One steal and one double up and you are at 20BBs, for god's sake.

Well done, adanthar.

jhodges · #43 05-04-2006, 01:30 PM

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Meh. Sorry guys, I was trying to make a point but obviously picked a too far out there hand for it.

edit: did I mention (I know I did to you, heh) that way back at the start of my poker career, tommy angelo was my role model and I wound up check/calling quads 3 times once? That was fun.

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Nice homage but you could have said something like "after all, my tournament life was on the line" to really get us into an uproar.

uclabruinz · #44 05-04-2006, 01:34 PM

And before I get slammed, I'm not saying you shouldn't call because you have 8 BBs left. I'm saying, if your read is pretty solid that villain has you beat, for whatever reason, don't spite call because you're getting tasty odds, have a pretty hand, and would "only" be left with 8 BBs.

gumpzilla · #45 05-04-2006, 01:52 PM

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Don't apologize that some don't get it. A crucial skill lacking in some of the best players is on display here, and it isn't your fault some are unable to pick up on it.

And good god people, don't underestimate the value of saving 8BBs and playing on. "I'll have nothing left so I might as well call" when the truth is you'll have 8BBs is just so bad, and yet so prevalent. One steal and one double up and you are at 20BBs, for god's sake.

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I don't think that's the main problem people have with the hand. The problem is that in order to make this a good fold you need to narrow his range to AA, a J, or QQ. If you include even just KK in there - and on this board, don't you think many players are going to play KK like essentially the mortal nuts? - to make it a fold you're going to need to include a pretty wide range of J's. There are 2 AJ's, 3 QJ's, 4 KJ's, 4 JT's. So you're going to need to go out to J9 or so. If you include TT as well, another hand which seems eminently reasonable for villain to have, you're going to need to include just about every possible J holding in the deck to make it a fold, which isn't realistic for even the donkiest of players.

jcm4ccc · #46 05-04-2006, 01:57 PM

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I'm saying, if your read is pretty solid that villain has you beat, for whatever reason, don't spite call because you're getting tasty odds, have a pretty hand, and would "only" be left with 8 BBs.

[/ QUOTE ] The problem with this type of thinking is that reads should always be attached with a percentage, which should never be 100% (or 999 out of 1000). Your reads should be "I am 90% certain that I am behind," rather than "I am so certain that I am behind that I am folding to any bet." Once you attach a percentage to your read, compare it to the odds you are being offered and act accordingly.

uclabruinz · #47 05-04-2006, 01:59 PM

Where did I say the read must only include one hand?

schwah · #48 05-04-2006, 02:03 PM

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I don't think that's the main problem people have with the hand. The problem is that in order to make this a good fold you need to narrow his range to AA, a J, or QQ. If you include even just KK in there - and on this board, don't you think many players are going to play KK like essentially the mortal nuts? - to make it a fold you're going to need to include a pretty wide range of J's. There are 2 AJ's, 3 QJ's, 4 KJ's, 4 JT's. So you're going to need to go out to J9 or so. If you include TT as well, another hand which seems eminently reasonable for villain to have, you're going to need to include just about every possible J holding in the deck to make it a fold, which isn't realistic for even the donkiest of players.

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he could easily have QK or AQ as well. i don't like that fold at all.

zipppy · #49 05-04-2006, 02:03 PM

The SB is still in the hand, no?

I know it's HIGHLY unlikely given the action, but this could be someone playing a J very strangely. like, maybe they misclicked 2+ times this hand??

either way, if adanthar calls this bet, there's still someone else that *could* have the J.

#50 05-04-2006, 02:05 PM

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And before I get slammed, I'm not saying you shouldn't call because you have 8 BBs left. I'm saying, if your read is pretty solid that villain has you beat, for whatever reason, don't spite call because you're getting tasty odds, have a pretty hand, and would "only" be left with 8 BBs.

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I was about to respond to your earlier post with some dissent. But you've qualified it well here. And for that, I commend you (and agree, more importantly). As they say, "8BBs and a chair, baby. 8BBs and a chair."