NBA Playoffs Thread

[Mano]

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As for Kobe, I honestly only remember all of his criticism coming directly from his relationship with Shaq, and based upon Shaq's lack of work ethic, I find it hard to blame Kobe for that. I don't remember anything with Malone, so perhaps you could enlighten me there. Certainly I don't remember any criticism when they were winning, and thats what it all comes down to.

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Here is an article from the 2002-03 season where his coaches criticizes him for his selfish play. Here are some excerpts:

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Kobe's me-first attitude in training camp (this was also the case in preseason games) destroyed the value of too many intrasquad scrimmages. Instead of concentrating on reorienting themselves to the triangle's basic geometries, the players' attention was focused on man-to-man competition, bickering over real and imagined fouls, looking to short-cut their way to victory, and ignoring the increasingly caustic scolding of the coaches.

In one preseason game, Kobe missed 20 shots. In another, he committed nine turnovers. Forcing bad shots, hogging the ball, and generally running amok, Kobe unilaterally devolved the Lakers' multidimensional offense into a straight line.

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"Kobe looked to go one-on-one every time he touched the ball," was the post-mortem that Jackson delivered to the media. "His rare pass surprised his teammates. I can only promise that, even before Shaq returns, things will get better."

Longtime assistant coach Tex Winter, the gadfly of the coaching staff, was a lot more direct when he confronted Kobe in the locker room after the game. "You played stupidly," he said, bluntly.


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So I think we can agree he was accused of being selfish before they got rid of Shaq. I am sure there are many more articles like this one if you want to go searching for them. I remember it being a common opinion, and even recall a parody Craig Kilborn did on his show where he acted like he was Kobe and would not pass the ball ("Pass the ball Kobe" "I can't" "Please,just pass the ball" "No!" or something to that effect).

I am surprised you don't remember the crap between Kobe and Malone over Karl supposedly flirting with Kobe's wife. I'm tired right now, but I am sure you can find references to it if you care to look it up.

[KingNeo]

I just want to say that I am really sorry I haven't been here to debate and make posts over the past 2 days. This thread is fantastic guys, nice work.

Pretty much the only reason I am still active on 2p2 anymore is for this forum.

I just want to make a couple of points so I'm gonna rant.

1. LBJ's performance the other night was sensational. Detroit's lack of defense was just as sensational.

2. I am still not sold on LBJ's jump shot. Hopefully he continues to develop it, but it really isn't outstanding. I was left scratching my head as some of those shots went in, I really don't think he can have another night like that. Kobe's stroke is just so pure and smooth.

3. Kobe Bryant is the most unstoppable scorer of all time (well behind Wilt but he doesn't count).

4. To answer a question asked earlier in the thread to rank the player I want in the 4th quarter at the end of the game the answer is simple.

A. MJ
B. Kobe
C. This spot and everything below is debatable.

5. LBJ's dunk in the 4th quarter was the most incredible in game dunk I have ever seen. It was jaw dropping. Pure Power. I rewound/rewinded that play about 4 times when they showed the replay. I screamed, "Get up boy!" and I'm not really that big of a LBJ fan.

6. KidColin: Your claims that Kobe isn't that great of a 4th quarter player are shaky at best.

7. I think Detroit is going to win the series.

[kidcolin]

Neo: http://82games.com/clutchplayers.htm

It's a little old, though. I guess saying Kobe isn't "great" is a bit much. It's Kobe, he's always great. But he comes up short plenty.

[hasugopher]

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All I will say about last night is that LeBron's performance was better than any post season performance Jordan EVER had. You can replace LeBron last night with Jordan in his prime and the Cavs lose that game 99 out of 100 times. That performance wasn't Jordanesque. It was LeBronesque, and the phrase Jordanesque is pretty much dead now as far as great postseason performances go. From now on it's LeBronesque. It's official. And this is coming from someone who has a lifesize cardboard cutout of Jordan in their spare bedroom.

The only NBA postseason performance greater than this since 1980 is Magic's 42 points, 15 rebounds, and 7 assists, when playing starting at center for Kareem, who was universally acknowledged as the greatest player in the league at that time, in game 6 of the finals. Oh, and he was a rookie. To further put in perspective how ridiculous that performance was imagine if Shaq was hurt during game 6 of the Lakers - Pacers Finals. Think Kobe could have started at center?

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heh, even as a life-long cleveland sports fan and somebody who likely overrates lebron's ability, I can't say I agree with the first paragraph. how many titles has lebron won?

[vhawk01]

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All I will say about last night is that LeBron's performance was better than any post season performance Jordan EVER had. You can replace LeBron last night with Jordan in his prime and the Cavs lose that game 99 out of 100 times. That performance wasn't Jordanesque. It was LeBronesque, and the phrase Jordanesque is pretty much dead now as far as great postseason performances go. From now on it's LeBronesque. It's official. And this is coming from someone who has a lifesize cardboard cutout of Jordan in their spare bedroom.

The only NBA postseason performance greater than this since 1980 is Magic's 42 points, 15 rebounds, and 7 assists, when playing starting at center for Kareem, who was universally acknowledged as the greatest player in the league at that time, in game 6 of the finals. Oh, and he was a rookie. To further put in perspective how ridiculous that performance was imagine if Shaq was hurt during game 6 of the Lakers - Pacers Finals. Think Kobe could have started at center?

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heh, even as a life-long cleveland sports fan and somebody who likely overrates lebron's ability, I can't say I agree with the first paragraph. how many titles has lebron won?

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"Wow, Travis Hafner absolutely crushed that ball. I don't think I've ever seen anyone hit a ball that hard before. That was ridiculous."

"Please, he didn't hit it that hard, he hasn't even won a World Series Ring."

[hasugopher]

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All I will say about last night is that LeBron's performance was better than any post season performance Jordan EVER had. You can replace LeBron last night with Jordan in his prime and the Cavs lose that game 99 out of 100 times. That performance wasn't Jordanesque. It was LeBronesque, and the phrase Jordanesque is pretty much dead now as far as great postseason performances go. From now on it's LeBronesque. It's official. And this is coming from someone who has a lifesize cardboard cutout of Jordan in their spare bedroom.

The only NBA postseason performance greater than this since 1980 is Magic's 42 points, 15 rebounds, and 7 assists, when playing starting at center for Kareem, who was universally acknowledged as the greatest player in the league at that time, in game 6 of the finals. Oh, and he was a rookie. To further put in perspective how ridiculous that performance was imagine if Shaq was hurt during game 6 of the Lakers - Pacers Finals. Think Kobe could have started at center?

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heh, even as a life-long cleveland sports fan and somebody who likely overrates lebron's ability, I can't say I agree with the first paragraph. how many titles has lebron won?

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"Wow, Travis Hafner absolutely crushed that ball. I don't think I've ever seen anyone hit a ball that hard before. That was ridiculous."

"Please, he didn't hit it that hard, he hasn't even won a World Series Ring."

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I wasn't trying to suggest that LBJ's performance the other night was anything short of remarkable. My point was that it's it's way too early to replace "jordanesque" with "lebronesque" (whatever that means) when the cavs have never even been in the NBA finals. I mean Jordan won titles in 6 straight years that he played if I'm not mistaken, with a 2 year stint in professional baseball splitting that. He won 6 finals MVPs!

I mean I have as much respect and hope for Lebron as anyone, but jumping the gun is still jumping the gun. Give the kid some time, he's only 22 years old, but compare the number of 'great' games that MJ has had with the number that Lebron has had. Quite honestly LBJ has been inconsistent at times in his whopping 2 year post-season career. See games 1 and 2 THIS series as two examples.

[vhawk01]

I guess, but I don't think he was saying that winning is Lebronesque, simply the way he took over that game. That was phenomenal, and something that Jordan probably never did. At least not like that. Jordan still wins in a million other categories, and those things are all still Jordanesque. But that type of performance? It just doesn't matter that it only happened once (so far) and that he hasn't won anything, at least, not for his point to be valid.

I know what you are saying. People get really defensive and red flags go up whenever anyone compares anyone to Jordan in anything. But I don't think you need to worry, he wasn't saying LeBron is better than Jordan, simply that what LeBron just did is something that Jordan never did, at least not that well.

[Assani Fisher]

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As for Kobe, I honestly only remember all of his criticism coming directly from his relationship with Shaq, and based upon Shaq's lack of work ethic, I find it hard to blame Kobe for that. I don't remember anything with Malone, so perhaps you could enlighten me there. Certainly I don't remember any criticism when they were winning, and thats what it all comes down to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is an article from the 2002-03 season where his coaches criticizes him for his selfish play. Here are some excerpts:

[ QUOTE ]
Kobe's me-first attitude in training camp (this was also the case in preseason games) destroyed the value of too many intrasquad scrimmages. Instead of concentrating on reorienting themselves to the triangle's basic geometries, the players' attention was focused on man-to-man competition, bickering over real and imagined fouls, looking to short-cut their way to victory, and ignoring the increasingly caustic scolding of the coaches.

In one preseason game, Kobe missed 20 shots. In another, he committed nine turnovers. Forcing bad shots, hogging the ball, and generally running amok, Kobe unilaterally devolved the Lakers' multidimensional offense into a straight line.

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"Kobe looked to go one-on-one every time he touched the ball," was the post-mortem that Jackson delivered to the media. "His rare pass surprised his teammates. I can only promise that, even before Shaq returns, things will get better."

Longtime assistant coach Tex Winter, the gadfly of the coaching staff, was a lot more direct when he confronted Kobe in the locker room after the game. "You played stupidly," he said, bluntly.


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So I think we can agree he was accused of being selfish before they got rid of Shaq. I am sure there are many more articles like this one if you want to go searching for them. I remember it being a common opinion, and even recall a parody Craig Kilborn did on his show where he acted like he was Kobe and would not pass the ball ("Pass the ball Kobe" "I can't" "Please,just pass the ball" "No!" or something to that effect).

I am surprised you don't remember the crap between Kobe and Malone over Karl supposedly flirting with Kobe's wife. I'm tired right now, but I am sure you can find references to it if you care to look it up.

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I'm drunk right now, so I might not argue as well as I'd like, but....

my entire contention this whole time has been that the selfishness or unselfishness of Kobe or MJ is a myth, and its simply due to them appearing selfish when they have poor surrounding casts but then looking better when they have good teamates. I said that before Pippen, MJ was perceived as selfish, and with Pippen he was perceived as a great teamate, but there wasn't any real change in MJ- it was just Pippen. Similarly, I claimed that Kobe simply appears selfish now that he doesn't have another great player(Shaq) with him, but if you give him another star then all of a sudden he'll appear to be a great teamate again.

You disagreed with me, saying that Kobe was selfish even with Shaq. Well I clicked on your link, and THE VERY FIRST SENTENCE said:

"This is Part 1 of Charley Rosen's two-part look at the Lakers opening the 2002-03 season without Shaquille O'Neal "

Doesn't that make your entire point void??

[Assani Fisher]

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I am surprised you don't remember the crap between Kobe and Malone over Karl supposedly flirting with Kobe's wife.

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I actually do remember this now that you say it, but still...I don't think this has anything to do with on the court issues.

[oe39]

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All I will say about last night is that LeBron's performance was better than any post season performance Jordan EVER had. You can replace LeBron last night with Jordan in his prime and the Cavs lose that game 99 out of 100 times. That performance wasn't Jordanesque. It was LeBronesque, and the phrase Jordanesque is pretty much dead now as far as great postseason performances go. From now on it's LeBronesque.

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Yep LeBron was absolutely unworldly last night. It was incredible! And by all means, carve his game onto the short stone tablet of great, great playoff performances, in any sport. But dude? "The phrase Jordanesque is pretty much dead"??? Jesus. Is this what I have to look forward to as I get older? Everyone forgetting what actually happened with MICHAEL JORDAN of all people? My god, is this at all what I did to the people watched Jerry West or Oscar Robertson?

For the record--and it really shouldn't come to this--MJ averaged 33.4/6/6 for his playoff career. That's one hundred seventy-nine games. 179 games where he was the focus, some of those games when his supporting cast was more miserable than you would ever believe, and where he still ended up being even better than his hype, again and again. MJ had a double-handful of insane masterpieces that, when you consider context + era + aesthetics + everything else, are on the exact same stone tablet as last night's ridiculousness from LBJ.

LeBron is freaking fantastic, that game was a species of miracle, basketball fans everywhere should be giddy. But dude, the stuff in the above quote is way too overboard for me to lurk through.

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also, saying " LeBronesque" is lame no matter what.