New Fight Question - Page 42

manub · #**411** 12-07-2006, 06:30 PM

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I get the impression that BJJ chokes are not essentially different than sport judo chokes.

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They are basically the same moves, you're right, with some minor technical differences in how the arms are positioned. That doesn't make them less deadly though.

Overall, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. You're saying that Muay Thai is closer to a deadly fight because of how often bones are broken. In Jiu Jitsu and other submission wrestling competitions, there would be a lot of broken bones if the fight wasn't stopped in time. I'm pretty sure that if Muay Thai fighters knew the incoming kick was going to break their leg and they had a chance to freeze time and stop the fight, they would! Muay Thai isn't more dangerous or deadly in a real situation. It just seems more dangerous because fighters can't avoid having their limbs broken in sporting events.

If you watch the UFC, there's this one fight between Tim Sylvia and Franck Mir where Mir breaks Sylvia's arm like a twig with an armbar (Sylvia refused to tap out and even wanted to keep fighting). Thank god we have tapouts in submission fighting, or that is how it would turn out every time...

kniper · #**412** 12-07-2006, 07:24 PM

I think everyone is underestimating the martial arts expert and going with the UFC guy.

HOW DOES EVERYONE THINK THAT BRUCE LEE WOULD DO AGAINST A TOP UFC GUY? I'm inclined to think he would win. If you hear the stories about Bruce's abilities it makes you think that he would put most of these guys to shame. He was in tip-top shape and fast as a mo-fo.

And yeah, Navy SEAL gets his ass kicked, as does street fighter. I think boxer can stand a chance so long as he has some mediocre grappling skills (see Vitor Belfort in UFC).

astroglide · #**413** 12-07-2006, 07:47 PM

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Diablo, this is spot on true. David has hung out with the likes of Chuck Lidell and Matt Hughes, and both concede that if David put 40% of his time into MMA Prior to age 45, he would have been an MMA champ. Hughes said that Pat Milletich actually teaches one of David's submission holds in his training camp.

To take this a step further, David could take the biggest poossy in any high school, and turn him into an MMA contender with his knowledge of the sport and training. Sklansky knows this because, his father, formerly known as the Jewish Thunder trained him from 5-14, and is undoubtedly the worlds best fight trainer.

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lololol

JasonK · #**414** 12-07-2006, 07:54 PM

If Bruce were at his peak now he would evolve his art for maximum effectiveness and ownage of MMA would ensue.

Bruce as he was back in the day, probably not so much. He'd be an average MMA fighter at best due to a lack of ground game.

goblue07 · #**415** 12-07-2006, 08:02 PM

What most of you people fail to realize is how much of a higher caliber of athlete and fighter a proffesional boxer is. It is exponentially harder to become a world champion boxer than it is to become a world champion Ultimate Fighter or any of the other 3 fighters.

This is because of the fame, prestige and money that comes with being a proffesssional boxer. Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier, Mike Tyson and Joe Louis are all common household names that the vast majority of Americans know. I guarentee you that few Americans know who Ken Shamrock or Chuck Lidell is. Furthermore, the average proffessional boxer makes about 10 times as much as an ultimate fighter, a martial arts expert, and a navy seal. Therefore, all the best fighters regardless of style will attempt to make it in boxing. Both these reasons combined make it so the best fighters in the world are boxers.

People also put too much weight on grappling and wrestling. In the heat of the battle someone with a ferocious punch can knock their enemy out in seconds. Punches ARE more powerful than kicks, elbows, knees and whatever other moves the other guys would attempt. I mean honestly have you guys ever seen Mike Tyson fight?

If all the different fighters were equals I would probably say that the Ultimate Fighter would win, but boxers are on a whole different level than the rest of the fighters and therefore would win.

JasonK · #**416** 12-07-2006, 08:13 PM

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This is because of the fame, prestige and money that comes with being a proffesssional boxer. Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier, Mike Tyson and Joe Louis are all common household names that the vast majority of Americans know. I guarentee you that few Americans know who Ken Shamrock or Chuck Lidell is.

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Well that should be expected. MMA hasn't even been around for 2 decades. Boxing has been around for a whole lot longer.

southerndog · #**417** 12-07-2006, 09:11 PM

Who was the toughest kid at your high school?? He probably wasn't 165 pounds.. Probably more like 190 pounds... given that people are fighting in weight classes, if we're considering something around 170 pounds, not that many people this size even bother being tough, cause there's always some one bigger.

JasonK · #**418** 12-07-2006, 09:41 PM

BJJ sharply reduces a size advantage. The days of bigger necessarily meaning badder have come and gone.

BJ Penn is 170lbs, and I'd easily take him over a random 250lb street fighter.

Colm · #**419** 12-07-2006, 09:43 PM

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I think everyone is underestimating the martial arts expert and going with the UFC guy.

HOW DOES EVERYONE THINK THAT BRUCE LEE WOULD DO AGAINST A TOP UFC GUY? I'm inclined to think he would win. If you hear the stories about Bruce's abilities it makes you think that he would put most of these guys to shame. He was in tip-top shape and fast as a mo-fo.

And yeah, Navy SEAL gets his ass kicked, as does street fighter. I think boxer can stand a chance so long as he has some mediocre grappling skills (see Vitor Belfort in UFC).

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k, i don't have much time to post tonight, but i've already addressed this in the other thread. bruce lee would get schooled by ANY average- not great, but average boxer or mmaer in a fight to the death. kung fu is for fighting other kung fu guys, yes that's a simplification of what bruce lee did, but trying judo a few times doens't count as cross training. if you have ever seen the video footage of bruce lee sparring, you would realize that, as is typical with traditional martial arts, it's good if you are better that the guy you are sparring with and you both do the same thing. try that [censored] against a boxer, thai boxer, judoka, wrestler, mmaer, bjjer etc, and you will get killed- in general. bruce lee just wasn't that good at fighting. people that say he was are tma clueless fanboys that can't properly evaluate someone's skill from watching a video, and likely have never trained themselves. yes, his kicks and punches are fast, but unless you are doing them from a good stance, it hardly matters.

John Kilduff · #**420** 12-07-2006, 09:58 PM

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I get the impression that BJJ chokes are not essentially different than sport judo chokes.

[/ QUOTE ]

They are basically the same moves, you're right, with some minor technical differences in how the arms are positioned. That doesn't make them less deadly though.

Overall, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. You're saying that Muay Thai is closer to a deadly fight because of how often bones are broken. In Jiu Jitsu and other submission wrestling competitions, there would be a lot of broken bones if the fight wasn't stopped in time. I'm pretty sure that if Muay Thai fighters knew the incoming kick was going to break their leg and they had a chance to freeze time and stop the fight, they would! Muay Thai isn't more dangerous or deadly in a real situation. It just seems more dangerous because fighters can't avoid having their limbs broken in sporting events.

If you watch the UFC, there's this one fight between Tim Sylvia and Franck Mir where Mir breaks Sylvia's arm like a twig with an armbar (Sylvia refused to tap out and even wanted to keep fighting). Thank god we have tapouts in submission fighting, or that is how it would turn out every time...

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I see your point and agree that chokes are *potentially* more deadly. I'm looking at it from the point of which cointest *as it is played* is more dangerous, rules included. That's why I say Mauy Thai more like real fighting, because it actually IS real fighting. It hurts more in the real world and will hurt you moree in the real world so you are risking your body more in the real world in Muay Thai than in UFC.