New Fight Question

[hasugopher]

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UFC is the closest you can have to a fight to the death

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Closer than unprotected Asian Muay Thai, where bones are frequently broken?

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Yes, because the fight can't go to the ground Muay Thai. That's a gigantic gap between the sport and a real fight.

BTW, Muay Thai is one of the practical martial arts. It what most UFC train in for their stand up fighting. But again the ground game is most important.

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Guess this is a matter of opinion, but it just seems to me that bones being broken is closer to a death match than ground-based submission holds which cause no real harm because of the tapping out rule.

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...what do you think would happen if there were no tap out rule?

[StregaChess]

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You obviously know nothing about the mix of martial arts used in MMA. 100% of it is completely applicable to a fight to the death,

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Maybe I'll reply a few hours from now when I'm done LMAO.
100% are you kidding me, grappling and fighting from the ground, you go girl... you go....

[John Kilduff]

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UFC is the closest you can have to a fight to the death

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Closer than unprotected Asian Muay Thai, where bones are frequently broken?

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Yes, because the fight can't go to the ground Muay Thai. That's a gigantic gap between the sport and a real fight.

BTW, Muay Thai is one of the practical martial arts. It what most UFC train in for their stand up fighting. But again the ground game is most important.

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Guess this is a matter of opinion, but it just seems to me that bones being broken is closer to a death match than ground-based submission holds which cause no real harm because of the tapping out rule.

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...what do you think would happen if there were no tap out rule?

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Obviously;-) But sometimes the chokee gets away, too.

In case you missed it, I outlined earlier in these threads that I have spent literally many dozens of hours striving against chokes and applying chokes in competitions (those hours total spent doing *that* specific activity; many more hours if we're talking total hours in competitions). But having the tap-out rule means you are in no real danger from submission holds.

You *are* in real danger if you are competing in Muay Thai in some Asian countries with no protective gear. As my Laotian friend put it (he is an ex-pro Asian Muay Thai-er) "If they are weak, you can hear it when their bones break." Having your ribs broken by someone's knee, or your face smashed in by someone's elbow, is to my way of thinking much more brutal and dangerous than playing a game you can just tap-out of, like we used to tap out of chokes in sport judo. To me, being under real danger of having your bones broken is much closer to a death match than playing a game where you can escape serious injury just by crying "uncle". That's why I think Asian Muay Thai is closer to a death match than UFC, but some may disagree and I guess that's just a matter of opinion.

[manub]

You can break your arms and legs playing football (soccer) or rugby. That doesn't turn those sports into battles to the death.

Why do you think there's a tapout rule? These moves are dangerous! I'm a practictioner of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and believe me, when you hold a guy the right way and he can't escape, you can do a lot of permanent damage to him that could ultimately cause death (I'm thinking mostly chokes and necklocks). Of course you stop before it gets any dangerous...

By the way, BJJ is an amazing sport. Try it out.

[southerndog]

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Reading these replies, I think I have the key to the answer.

First eliminate the boxer and streetfighter. Then combine the martial arts and UFC guys into one category. The question then becomes whether those guys beat the Navy Seal.

More precisely the question is whether the Seal's knowledge of killing techniques makes up for his disadvantage in athletic ability or other fighting techniques.

First notice that these killing techniques are often going under the assumption that the Seal has surprised his adversary. That's not the case here. Scecond those techniques are going under the assumption that his opponent is overall a lesser fighter. Again not the case here.

Still though the Seal will know stuff about ripping out windpipes or whatever that he other guys will be less adept at. Can that swing things? On average my guess is definitely not.

But the question didn't compare average against average. I compared best against best. Which may change things. The easiest way to get a handle on whether it does is to ask a different question, the answer to which would shed a lot of light on things. I'm not sure whether its worth staring a seperate thread about it.

The question is: What ranked UFC/maritial arts practitioner would turn into the number one fighter to the death with no rules IF he was given the full Navy Seal training? See what I'm saying. Would the twentieth best such guy kill the best if he went to Seal school? Where is the cutoff?

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Someone capable of writing this can not be the genius they proclaim themselves to be.

[JasonK]

If you're in a choke and get to the tap out point there's absolutely no way you would be able to get out of that choke hold, unless your opponent released it. Tapping out is the last resort. Seconds later you will be passed out.

[StregaChess]

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That's why I think Asian Muay Thai is closer to a death match than UFC, but some may disagree and I guess that's just a matter of opinion.


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I think you are being very gracious; it’s not a matter of opinion. Snapping bones is serious stuff, Asian Muay Thai is a prime example of why its so difficult to lump all martial artist together in the OP question. I asked a friend whom is a 3rd degree black belt the OP’s question. Is immediate answer was that Boxers and UFC are the first he’d eliminated from being the winner in a death match. It’s all about how you train and your objectives, and UFC is trained to win a match under very controlled conditions. He also said that the marital artist is totally dependant on what they train for. Like he put it, if its training primarily centered around street encounters or “training in the air” as he likes to call it. We studied under the same person 20 years ago so I know where that was coming from and had to laugh. The other question I posed and I don’t think has been brought up. Is that in UFC we see someone get punched over and over again, like multiple times and …. At this point me stopped me and said “Yep, that (x teacher, sorry forgot the name) states that if you hit some one three times and they are still conscious you’ve got problems with your power….”

Another point regarding the marital artist being such a deep field that needs to brought up, if you got some real specialty areas and I’m not sure where I stand on this but… you have folks like George Dillman and you need to account for what they bring to the table and its not the normal martial arts approach. If you are not familiar with Dillman just google his name and pressure points, watch some videos… you’ll get the idea…

[kdotsky]

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That's why I think Asian Muay Thai is closer to a death match than UFC, but some may disagree and I guess that's just a matter of opinion.


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I think you are being very gracious; it’s not a matter of opinion. Snapping bones is serious stuff, Asian Muay Thai is a prime example of why its so difficult to lump all martial artist together in the OP question. I asked a friend whom is a 3rd degree black belt the OP’s question. Is immediate answer was that Boxers and UFC are the first he’d eliminated from being the winner in a death match. It’s all about how you train and your objectives, and UFC is trained to win a match under very controlled conditions. He also said that the marital artist is totally dependant on what they train for. Like he put it, if its training primarily centered around street encounters or “training in the air” as he likes to call it. We studied under the same person 20 years ago so I know where that was coming from and had to laugh. The other question I posed and I don’t think has been brought up. Is that in UFC we see someone get punched over and over again, like multiple times and …. At this point me stopped me and said “Yep, that (x teacher, sorry forgot the name) states that if you hit some one three times and they are still conscious you’ve got problems with your power….”

Another point regarding the marital artist being such a deep field that needs to brought up, if you got some real specialty areas and I’m not sure where I stand on this but… you have folks like George Dillman and you need to account for what they bring to the table and its not the normal martial arts approach. If you are not familiar with Dillman just google his name and pressure points, watch some videos… you’ll get the idea…

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This is pure garbage. I can't even tell if you're trolling at this point. If pressure points were effective in real fights, they'd be used in the UFC as they're perfectly legal. This is what's known as "hocus pocus" martial arts. They may work against an incompetent opponent, but that's about it.

If after hitting someone three times and they're not unconcious you have a problem with power? Look at boxing. There's so much money in boxing that it attracts the world's elite athletes and most powerful strikers. They get hit dozens and dozens of times. And it's not due to the gloves, as the only purpose of those is to protect their hands and prevent cuts on the face.

If there was a single martial art that worked, it would be come evident. Through UFC, the military, or whatever.

And yes, Mui Thai is effective. But again it has been shown throughout history that grappling is most important.

[Whose2know]

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David,

I think I'd rank them as follows:

World's best ultimate fighting champion
World's best karate and or other Asian martial arts.
World's most elite Navy Seal as far as hand to hand combat is concerned.
World's best boxer
World's best real streetfighter from a gang or whatever.

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This is correct. AND I MEAN CORRECT !!!!!!!!!!

[John Kilduff]

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You can break your arms and legs playing football (soccer) or rugby. That doesn't turn those sports into battles to the death.

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In Asian Muy Thai they are delivering blows that can easily break bones, and often do. That's a whole different thing than merely having an off chance to break a bone by accident as in football.

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Why do you think there's a tapout rule? These moves are dangerous! I'm a practictioner of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and believe me, when you hold a guy the right way and he can't escape, you can do a lot of permanent damage to him that could ultimately cause death (I'm thinking mostly chokes and necklocks). Of course you stop before it gets any dangerous...

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I get the impression that BJJ chokes are not essentially different than sport judo chokes. I used to get home after randori with bruises all over my neck due to struggling against chokes. Chokes can be resisted and escaped from especially if the resistance starts before the choker gets the choke fully applied. A good defensive competitor senses that the opponent is getting positioned to apply a choke and immediately begins conutermeasures. Often we spent ten minutes or more in just such a struggle, with one person sometimes in leg grapevine control trying to work the choke tight enough to force a submission and the other person trying to create enough room and prevent the choke from forcing a tapout while trying to escape. How much time have you spent in actual choke struggles during competition? I'm probably lowballing it when I say that I have spent at least 60 hours just striving to choke or not be choked out. With the tapout rule it's a lot safer an activity than getting a hard knee in the ribs a few times or an elbow smash in the face. Asian Muay Thai is the only martial art I wouldn't care to try in competition because you are so likely to get seriously injured.

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By the way, BJJ is an amazing sport. Try it out.

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I might someday, thanks. My focus was primarily in judo and wrestling although I have dabbled in jujitsu, aikido, and boxing. This was before BJJ got popular and before UFC and the like. BBJ looks amazingly similar to sport judo especially on the ground, with a bit of a different focus, and of course some other differences. The matwork grappling appears pretty similar overall from what I have seen of Royce Gracie in competition. Ask your BBJ instructor if sport judo matwork grappling is fairly similar to BBJ matwork grappling, and if he is familiar with it, I'd bet he says yes. If not I'd be interested to know his view of the differences specifically as far as matwork grappling goes. Thanks for your time and thanks for answering my post.