The Vegetarian Torture

[MrMon]

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This thread has beens severely hijacked, but I think that Q-tip needs to grow up and stop being so picky about food and at the same time the people who invited him for dinner are not good hosts. As a host, your goal should be to cater to the needs and desires of your guests. These people were being self-centered.

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Right, I'm with you on all this. However, again, let it be known that I tried everything there.

Now, my question from the start was really "How do I handle this politely?" By "this", I mean regarding the fact that I have a ton of food left on my plate that makes me want to puke. That, by itself, is rude where I come from.

Meep mentioned making an excuse about not feeling well. I guess that's about all I can do. I can't really see saying "You know what, I'm not familiar with any of these dishes, and I'm not fond of them. However, I do appreciate the time and effort you put into preparing it."

That just doesn't seem right.

Edit: I humbly submit to the hijacking of this thread as if certainly has gotten much more interesting.


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Think how differently this thread would have turned out if you had simply asked the question "What do you do when you're invited to dinner at someone's house and you discover they don't cook worth a damn?"

Now THAT would have generated a useful discussion.

[scrub]

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I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I have no problems with people who choose not to eat meat and I'm sure you'll be a great parent, but I'm not sure that raising a child as a vegetarian doesn't have risks associated with it no matter how knowledgeable the parents are.

Kids don't always eat everything their parents tell them to. If a kid is eating a diet with redundant sources of a given nutrient, then if he or she doesn't eat enough of one food, it's not that big of a deal. If a kid is eating a diet where some food items are the only sources for essential nutrients, then it stands to reason that there would be a greater chance that the kid would choose not to eat something important.

scrub

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I understand your point, but do you give this speech to everyone? Do you honestly think my vegetarian kid is in as much danger as the kid whose parents take him to McDonalds?

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I have no idea.

I merely asked if it was a risk, and you replied that there wasn't any "chance" involved if you were adequately knowledgeable it, which sounded an awful lot like "poker is not gambling" to me.

scrub

[LittleOldLady]

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vegetarianism is not philosophically compatible with Judaism.

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Google:

the Talmud (Pesachim 109a states that since the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, Jews are not required to eat meat in order to rejoice on festivals)

Rabbi Abraham Isaac Hakohen Kook, the first chief rabbi of modern Israel, considered vegetarianism to be the ideal, the ultimate peace between mankind and the rest of the animal kingdom. He felt that in the Messianic Age, as prophesied by Isaiah (XI:7), we would all be vegetarian again and the only sacrifices offered would be the mincha sacrifice, which was of vegetable origin.

In the ideal state of Gan Eden (the Garden of Eden), mankind is described as being vegetarian, and this state persisted until after the Flood in the time of Noach. In Bereishit, perek aleph, pasuk kaf"tet (Genesis I:29), God told Adam and Chava (Eve) that He had given them all of the seed-bearing plants and fruits as food. The Gemara (Sanhedrin 59b) declares, "Rav Yehuda said in the name of Rav, 'Adam was not allowed to eat meat,'" citing the above pasuk (verse) from Bereishit. Almost all of the subsequent commentators agree with this assessment.

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Here is a very good article on the issue of Judaism and vegetarianism:

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vita...nd-judaism.htm

To quote this article:

"Vegetarianism based on the idea that we have no moral right to kill animals is not an acceptable Jewish view."

Vegetarianism is permitted when it is chosen for health reasons (including these days the promiscuous treatment of animals with antibiotics and hormones) or for aesthetic reasons (one doesn't enjoy the taste of meat). It is also permitted to avoid eating the meat of animals that have been raised under cruel factory farming conditions.

If one defines vegetarianism (as many vegetarians do) as avoiding the use of all animal products, then that is absolutely incompatible with Judaism. There cannot be a plastic shofar, nor can the Torah be written on paper.

Practically it is possible to be a Jew and a vegetarian, and a man named Richard Schwartz is all over the net promulgating this idea. OTOH taking the stance that it is immoral or unethical to eat meat or use animal products is simply not compatible with Judaism.

Judaism has concern for the well being of animals and has many laws safeguarding the humane treatment of animals, but it is not permissible to consider the life of an animal equivalent to the life of a human because only humans were created in the image of G-d.

Indeed, "in Jewish consciousness, the highest level an animal can achieve is to be consumed by a human and used in the service of God." (same source cited above)

The philosophical position of PETA and other radical animal rights groups and the tactics such groups use in supporting their views are anathema to traditional Jews. Of course, most vegetarians and most people who are concerned with the humane treatment of animals are not members of PETA or other such radical groups and do not hold PETA-type views. I do not, for example, think anyone in his right mind condones the murder of Pim Fortuyn in the Netherlands in the name of animal rights. (Ironically the chief mourners at Pim Fortuyn's funeral were his two beloved little doggies who participated in the funeral procession.)

[Paluka]

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I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I have no problems with people who choose not to eat meet and I'm sure you'll be a great parent, but I'm not sure that raising a child as a vegetarian doesn't have risks associated with it no matter how knowledgeable the parents are.

Kids don't always eat everything their parents tell them to. If a kid is eating a diet with redundant sources of a given nutrient, then if he or she doesn't eat enough of one food, it's not that big of a deal. If a kid is eating a diet where some food items are the only sources for essential nutrients, then it stands to reason that there would be a greater chance that the kid would choose not to eat something important.

scrub

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I understand your point, but do you give this speech to everyone? Do you honestly think my vegetarian kid is in as much danger as the kid whose parents take him to McDonalds?

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Awful awful response. There are plenty of alternatives between a diet with too much fast food for kids and an all vegetarian diet. Vegetarian may be preferred to McDonalds but that doesn't mean that anything in the middle isn't preferred to both.

Also, whether some parents feed their kids McDonalds has no relevance on whether it's harmful to feed them an all vegetarian diet. If some parents never provide any sort of discipline for their kid that obviously doesn't justify others using beatings as their form of discipline right?

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My point was do you really think I need to be asked these questions? You think I never bothered to check if raising my kid vegetarian was healthy? Do you get the impression from my posts that I'm an irresponsible, uneducated retard? I had a conversation with our pediatrican with vegetarianism on day one. In general, vegetarians are the last people who need to be lectured on their kids eating habits, because they are among the unfortunately low percentage of parents in the U.S. that actually take the time to pay attention to what their kids are eating.

[El Ishmael]

I'm curious what the Jewish vegetarian population thinks of the violent and torturous use of wildlife to market kosher products.

[Paluka]

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I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I have no problems with people who choose not to eat meat and I'm sure you'll be a great parent, but I'm not sure that raising a child as a vegetarian doesn't have risks associated with it no matter how knowledgeable the parents are.

Kids don't always eat everything their parents tell them to. If a kid is eating a diet with redundant sources of a given nutrient, then if he or she doesn't eat enough of one food, it's not that big of a deal. If a kid is eating a diet where some food items are the only sources for essential nutrients, then it stands to reason that there would be a greater chance that the kid would choose not to eat something important.

scrub

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I understand your point, but do you give this speech to everyone? Do you honestly think my vegetarian kid is in as much danger as the kid whose parents take him to McDonalds?

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I have no idea.

I merely asked if it was a risk, and you replied that there wasn't any "chance" involved if you were adequately knowledgeable it, which sounded an awful lot like "poker is not gambling" to me.

scrub

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The short answer is that a vegetarian diet is 100% healthy for anyone. I've never found a doctor who told me different, and there is a lot of literature on the subject.
And I stand by my rejection of the term "chance". Eating is not a series of random events where sometimes you end up unhealthy.

[KaneKungFu123]

Why dont you let your kids eat meat and then let them decide for themselves whether or not they want to be a veggie? Why not allow them that freedom instead of forcing your will and tofu down their throats. Seriously.

[The DaveR]

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Why dont you let your kids eat meat and then let them decide for themselves whether or not they want to be a veggie? Why not allow them that freedom instead of forcing your will and tofu down their throats. Seriously.

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KKF, you should have talked to my parents. I certainly didn't want only Korean food growing up. Think of the children in Korea you could help!

[bobbyi]

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Why dont you let your kids eat meat and then let them decide for themselves whether or not they want to be a veggie? Why not allow them that freedom instead of forcing your will and tofu down their throats. Seriously.

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KKF, you should have talked to my parents. I certainly didn't want only Korean food growing up. Think of the children in Korea you could help!

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Yeah, I wish KKF had been there to reason with my parents when I was a kid. I would have used my dietary freedom to have cookies and ice cream for every meal. And that would be vegetarian, so if Paluka goes this route, both he and his kids will be happy.

[Paluka]

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Why dont you let your kids eat meat and then let them decide for themselves whether or not they want to be a veggie? Why not allow them that freedom instead of forcing your will and tofu down their throats. Seriously.

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When he is old enough to make that sort of complex decision for himself, I'll try to help him make the decision that is right for him.