Was Hachem being unethical?

[El Diablo]

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As far as the players at the table besides Minh Ly, Lee Watkinson, and myself are concerned, the talk might as well be a nod because they can't benefit from the information.

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Well, in this spot. I meant in a more general fashion, if Hachem is talking to Lee (or anyone) in this manner, the other players involved in the different hands will all have opportunities to take advantage of this information. I don't want to belabor this point, though, I obviously understand your concern.

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But something with this whole situation doesn't sit right with me. I really wish some of you could see it

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Yeah, that of course is the issue here. I mean, I have no reason to disbelieve anything you are saying. However, maybe Lee and Hachem are acquaintances but not friends? If that's the case, maybe Hachem was going one level up and trying to talk Lee into a call in a spot where the raise itself was going to get him to fold QQ? If Lee had called, your read on the whole situation is quite different, right? Again, impossible to speak intelligently on this specific spot without being there.

As for the saving chips comment, that's a pretty serious accusation. I mean, you are still at 10 players in a very top-heavy structure. How much is Hachem costing himself by getting Lee to fold?

I think it comes down to this simple question.

If you were in Lee's spot, would Hachem want you to do the same thing as he wants Lee to do?

If the answer is yes, then I have no problem w/ Hachem doing anything possible to get his desired result.

If the answer is no, he wants Lee to fold and stay alive, but wants you to call and get your chips in bad, well then it seems both unethical and stupid on Hachem's part. In fact, it would even perhaps imply that he and Lee have some other reason to not want each other knocked out.

[Ezcheeze]

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if i were a totally impartial observer of this hand, i'd see him angling about as hard as he could for more callers.

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If you were there to see it happen you would be sure it was the opposite. I know I can't really back that up, but I was there and I'm sure for what that's worth.

[johnnybeef]

There are always subtle nuances that are involved in poker that are not conveyable through pen and paper (or in this case an internet forum.) Hachem very well could have been baiting Watkinson for a call here through higher level thinking. Psychological warfare sure is fun.

[Lloyd]

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I said in my original post that what he did is not against the rules. My question is was it unethical. The way swapping large percentages is unethical.

(Edited to take out an example that acutally is against the rules)

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Actually, it might be against the rules depending upon what rules they are using and how strictly they are interpreting them. But Rule 37 of the TDA states:

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Verbally disclosing the contents of your hand or advising a player how to play a hand may result in a penalty.

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Clearly, Hachem did advise another player how to play a hand. But given that there is a TD right there I think he should have stepped in and reminded the players that they cannot disuss their hand or advise others what to do. But it would have to be an outright abuse of the rules for a player to be penalized on a final table of an event like this.

[Prime Time]

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Hmmmm... That could also be construed as him trying really hard to get a call.

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I agree

[THAY3R]

Let's just say you are right....
If you were able to figure out that hachem was really strong, and that he was making lee fold a very good hand, then why couldn't Minh do the same, and fold his hand?

[Prime Time]

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Forgetting about Ly for a moment, is it ok for me to tell another player I have them beat when I actually do, essentially helping them save chips. And is it ok for me to tell them they have me beat when they do, essentially giving them chips.

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The way I see it, it's kind of a reverse bluff, or reverse psycology. It's not like he said I have a pair of cowboys, fold so I can bust the shorty. Besides, he really wants the call! Thats what you should consider.

[betgo]

I would assume he was telling Watkinson he didn't want to call to encourage Watkinson and others to call. They might interpret it as "strong means weak".

I doubt very much that Watkinson folded QQ in this situation.

[Ezcheeze]

Because Minh doesn't speak english very well. He doesn't understand alot of the subtleties needed to accurately interprety what Hachem was implying with his statements+body language.

[sirio11]

Unethical is what Hasan Habib did with Tuan Lee; Hachem talk is hardly unethical and it's not even close.