Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?

[DannyOcean_]

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I may not be on the 99 aston martin status, but I'm confortable enough to match spite calls. But that's a silly road for anyone to go down. So, my plan for here on out is basically to mirror your calling ranges. If you are spite calling me with T9, I'll do the same. If you are folding AKo everytime in this spot should our situation be reverse, I just might start mucking the AKo.


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someone found the game theoretic solution (nash equilibrium).

[billybeartku]

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it cost you the $37 plus future ev because you would still have been chipleader on the bubble, the other two short stacks would have been whittled down to almost nothing before one went out, and you would be winning 3 blinds for ever 1 blind I won. Calling me here is just absolutely stupid, and probably cost you around $100 in just this tournament. Yea it cost me money as well, but I guarantee you it cost you more because I am going to spite call the [censored] out of you every chance I get from now on, and I am rich enough that the money it costs me won't mean anything. And I 16 table continuous so I will be in a ton of your games. Congrats on the metagame call. And I'm not shoving low unsuited cards there because the short stacks aren't folding near as much as all of you have been assuming.

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love it. good job Joe

[LeadbellyDan]

"I may not be on the 99 aston martin status, but I'm confortable enough to match spite calls. But that's a silly road for anyone to go down. So, my plan for here on out is basically to mirror your calling ranges. If you are spite calling me with T9, I'll do the same. If you are folding AKo everytime in this spot should our situation be reverse, I just might start mucking the AKo."

Eureka! Tit for tat is definitely the best stategy. It will end up with neither of you spitecalling and so you wont be passing on EV to the weaker players (that is if you are both rational agents [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img])

[Pudge714]

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As alluded to, the problem is he's on your left, not your right. That makes a big, big difference for the expected EV of near-future hands.

But yeah, calling is fun to do everytime

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[suzzer99]

But you're not CL anymore. And you'd need to still be CL by a few K to know that you're still going to get to own. A lot of stuff can happen on the next hand. Either of the blinds could shove. They could fold to you and you look down at 23o and lose your nerve, knowing joey could call with a wide range.

So it's not like there's this golden path to ownage still all set up for you if you fold here.

I'm just bored at work and stirring the pot btw. I really don't want to get into a big pissing thing like that other thread. Just having fun.

[ryanghall]

loooooool I call AK and worse here, I can tell you that.

Ryan

[curtains]

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10 handed $225 on the bubble. utg is bigjoe2003.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (4 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">UTG (t5225)</font>
Button (t1800)
SB (t2140)
<font color="#C00000">Hero (t5835)</font>

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t5200</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t4800.

Flop: (t10075) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Turn: (t10075) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t10075) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t10075

Upon busting, bigjoe informed me that this play was like -$100EV. My reasoning is that while this might be -EV for me, it is worse more -EV for him, and if I make calls like this against regulars, they will not be able to profitably push garbage on the bubble any more vs. my big blind. (he had J6). He said he wouldn't change his push range because I call him there with AK, but I'm not so sure. Seems like he'd have to to maximize profit.

Not to mention, if I fold everything in this situation but AA-QQ I not only make it very profitable for him to push any2 on the bubble, I also make it very likely that once we are in the money I will have equal of less chips than someone who is going to play roughly perfectly, while the other two players were pretty bad and missed out on all kinds of +ev situations, meaning that if I take out bigjoe I have a monster stack and lots of fold equity, giving me a very good chance of taking first.

is my reasoning sound at all, or am I just giving money away?

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Dude you have to call a lot lighter than AK for him to need to adjust his pushing range. Anyway I suspect that calling may be correct if hes pushing 100%. It really means a lot that when you lose you still have 600 chips. That's quite a lot of equity, even if it may seem meaningless at first glance.

[DevinLake]

ok I read a bit of this thread and just want to say one thing:

lol at people thinking him calling with AKo will tighten up anyones pushing range. Zomg, dalla calls as wide as 4%, I better not shove into him.

[suzzer99]

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ok I read a bit of this thread and just want to say one thing:

lol at people thinking him calling with AKo will tighten up anyones pushing range. Zomg, dalla calls as wide as 4%, I better not shove into him.

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Ok, you're like the 7th person who's said this. Yes if dalla calls, and says "don't worry, I'll never call you with AQ or AJ, I promise, then no joe's range doesn't change much." But that's not the way it happens.

[JDalla]

1) he's not pushing ATC, more like 70%.
2) AKo is a +EV call against 40% - 80% pushing range, according to SNG wizard.
3) it is a losing call against 100%, but he admitted he doesn't push 100% there.