A hand

[Clarkmeister]

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His line just doesn't _feel_ like the way he should plausibly play an ace.


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This is what I was thinking at the table. His hand "should" be an ace the way he played it, but it just didn't feel like how he'd play an ace against me. Hence, my call. But at the same time, it sure didn't feel like he could reasonably expect me to fold *anything* to his river bet in that pot, which made me feel retarded for calling.

As for the turn, I think your observation is a good one. Another reason I raised is that I don't like to "encourage them to think I play weakly" as someone suggested in another thread. There are times for that, yes, but given that I 3-bet him quite a bit preflop and that ace high boards are so easy for people to take shots at, I just felt that this was a bad spot to do anything other than try and punish him in case he was taking a shot. So I'm going with the sometimes lame metagame excuse as another reason I popped the turn.

[Clarkmeister]

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Were u going to value bet this river? Thats the main reason I could see why raising the turn would be better.

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I wasn't going to bet the river, but now that you mention it, I think that may be a mistake. Good idea.

[Clarkmeister]

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he obviously bet the turn to avoid giving a free card, which means he has a made hand

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But with that board and that preflop action, I don't see how any made hand is really worried about free cards.

[Clarkmeister]

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he likely thinks I'm somewhat tight/predictable

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Wow. I remember the post where Zee asked you what stage you were in when you got crazy with 55 or something. Seems like something's changed.

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Well, I said tight/predictable *relative to himself*. There were people at that table who think I'm a LAGtard too.

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Unless he's betting because it's the only way he wins. Which you think is the case.


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I called because his hand didn't feel how he'd play an ace, but it looked for all the world like an ace. So what I'm saying is I wasn't thinking anything other than I just had to see his hand because while I felt I was beat, I needed the information because my instinct didn't jive with my read. Which may be a pretty bad reason to call, or a good one, I'm not sure.

[Clarkmeister]

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HI Clarkmeister,

It looks like you posted this hand becuz you were wondering if there is a better line to take in this spot with TT against this type of opponent.

Heres a quote from TOP, page 272, that may apply here.

11. "Against an opponent who plays too loose on early rounds and too aggressively later on you should play solid cards, but play them meekly. Make this player think he can run over you."

Since the villain seems to fit this decription, If I were to apply this concept, I would just call his 3 bet preflop, and on this board, I would just call down. What do you think of the merits of this strategy against this particular opponent. I personally like this line against this villain.

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I think it's giving up WAY too much against a player who will consistently give excessive action. Also, a wierd dynamic sometimes is that the more bets you put in preflop, the more action they are willing to give. In other words, if I just call and then come to life on an 8-high board, it's an action killer. If I 4-bet and it comes 8-high, I'm still likely to get tons of action before he really believes I've got an overpair or can't push me off AK or whatever.

[Barry]

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i think you lost. or you beat 77. but i don't like it.

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To really get typical LV locals at the table excited, he shows you JJ, you nod, say good and muck.

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he likely thinks I'm somewhat tight/predictable - at least relative to himself.

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Does he think that he can outplay you and will pick a hand or 2 each session to try to do it?

I'm fine with raising his turn, "Do you really have an A?" bet as many times that's just what it is.

Now he still bets the river. From his prospective, you've played it like AK or perhaps like a big pair looking for a free showdown.

After the turn action he must assume that you are going to call the bet on the river, so isn't he more likely to be value betting? Maybe he has a weak A, maybe his T7 or A6 just got there. You're pretty good at spotting and slipping out of c/r attempts (I know, I've whiffed on a few) so his betting the river when he gets there isn't that surprising. I guess you're beat, but am I 90% sure he's not making one last bluff attempt with busted hearts or maybe a smaller pair. I guess not, so I would feel dirty and call.

[Gabe]

Most of the reasons to raise the turn against a weak player, I think, are greatly diminished against a someone who plays well, tough, and big. You’re not really going to gain control over him for the future. He’s not going to fold a better hand, like many of the weaker Vegas players might.

Rather than trying to cultivate an image against a strong player, personally, I think it’s better to just use whatever image you happen to have against them, when you can. You might say that this is what you were doing with your turn raise, but from the way he played the hand, I think he may actually think that you’re “more aggressive than most but play reasonably well overall.”

As far as metagame, I think folding or raising the river is the stronger play.

[Clarkmeister]

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As far as metagame, I think folding or raising the river is the stronger play

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Interesting idea.

Regarding another interesting idea, would you bet the river if checked to?

[Westley878]

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HI Clarkmeister,

It looks like you posted this hand becuz you were wondering if there is a better line to take in this spot with TT against this type of opponent.

Heres a quote from TOP, page 272, that may apply here.

11. "Against an opponent who plays too loose on early rounds and too aggressively later on you should play solid cards, but play them meekly. Make this player think he can run over you."

Since the villain seems to fit this decription, If I were to apply this concept, I would just call his 3 bet preflop, and on this board, I would just call down. What do you think of the merits of this strategy against this particular opponent. I personally like this line against this villain.

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I think it's giving up WAY too much against a player who will consistently give excessive action. Also, a wierd dynamic sometimes is that the more bets you put in preflop, the more action they are willing to give. In other words, if I just call and then come to life on an 8-high board, it's an action killer. If I 4-bet and it comes 8-high, I'm still likely to get tons of action before he really believes I've got an overpair or can't push me off AK or whatever.

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Good point, it sounds like capping preflop against this villain is the best play.

[andyfox]

Boy, I just can't see your hand being good here. So I like a raise or a fold on the river, not for the metagame as Gabe posted, but for this particular hand. I agree with the consensus that there's something strange about him playing this way if he has an ace, donking both the turn and river. But those pauses before betting feel, reading it here, like a pocket pair thinking you too have a pocket pair and that he thinks his might be better. A raise on the river, after the turn raise, should get him to release pocket queens or jacks, no? Maybe even a better hand than that, if he truly thinks you're tight/predictable.