HUSNG Assertion: You should never limp.

[Nichomacheo]

I limp a fair amount during all levels of a standard Heads Up SNG. I've played some opponents who never do it. Some are easily exploitable because of postflop weaknesses, but some players are very difficult to play against when they're smart postflop. So the question is: Should a good player limp preflop? If so, under what conditions and with what hands?

Nicho

[Nichomacheo]

Phenom (!), I'd like your take on this especailly, since I recall that you never limped preflop in our matches.

[dippy111]

I think that following an "always do" rule in HU can only lead to holes in your game. Sure some players raise or fold every hand, and do it very profitably. But that doesn't mean that it's never better to limp. It all depends on the type of opponent you're playing. If the opponent usually either folds or raises to a pf bet, but is terribly loose post and not very perceptive, then it would make sense to limp very often. This is an extreme case of course, but there are still many situations where opponents have holes that can be exploited by limping, even if rarely.

[ThePhenom919]

I'm sure i'm not the only one who thinks like that, but limping lowers ur expected value for basically any decent hand preflop and on the flop.

[dboy23]

i've recently come to the opposite conclusion. Agaisnt most of my opponents I can turn alot of folding hands into limping hands where I had been folding.

then there are people who raise your limps an optimal % of the time and you have to adjust to mostly raise/fold.

And then.....there are people who raise your limps too much, where you might be better off limping some decent hands, letting them raise, and calling. I find that most of the time on FTP I bet a big (often potsize) cbet out of them on the flop, and some often almost always double barrel as well.

I really like this line as it gets my opponents to do alot of OOP bluffing.

So yeah, I like limping against nonoptimal opponents in either direction.

[TNixon]

Slightly off-topic:

I've started very aggressively attacking frequent limpers in HUSNGs, raising to 4x, with most hands that I would raise from the button, backing off if they call too many attacks.

Would you say this is attacking too often or too much (what is optimal, exactly?), and is it actually a good idea to try to attack so much at the lower buyins where people are limping very frequently? I found I was getting a *lot* more folds than I expected to, which is why I started being really aggressive with it, but I might have gone overboard. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[dboy23]

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Slightly off-topic:

I've started very aggressively attacking frequent limpers in HUSNGs, raising to 4x, with most hands that I would raise from the button, backing off if they call too many attacks.

Would you say this is attacking too often or too much (what is optimal, exactly?), and is it actually a good idea to try to attack so much at the lower buyins where people are limping very frequently? I found I was getting a *lot* more folds than I expected to, which is why I started being really aggressive with it, but I might have gone overboard. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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I think it is likely that you raise too many limps. Against players like you I would begin to limp some nice hands and either just call your raise or LRR.

As for what % you should be raising limps, I'm not sure what is optimal. I usually base my decision to limp/fold or raise/limp on feel of how my opponent will react.

[Nichomacheo]

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I'm sure i'm not the only one who thinks like that, but limping lowers ur expected value for basically any decent hand preflop and on the flop.

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Phenom, how do you address this type of player that Dippy mentions:

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If the opponent usually either folds or raises to a pf bet, but is terribly loose post and not very perceptive, then it would make sense to limp very often.

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This is the type of player I will limp a lot against. I can see an argument being made for bigger pots equates to bigger postflop mistakes by your opponent. Is there any other good argument?

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When the effective stack is more then 20 bbs I dont limp at all. I min raise about 90% of my hands and fold the rest. I use to limp some and try to exploit my opponents pre flop holes but I found it just wasn't worth the effort. The very small profit I was getting wasn't worth the effort it took to exploit their pre flop holes. My preflop strategy is designed to cause my opponent to play as many hands OOP as possible while being as non exploitable as possible. I like to lull my opponents into to calling to many hands oop and then exploit that post flop.

Once the effective stack is less then 20 bbs my positional advantage has decreased to the point where I want them to fold. If I continued to raise 90% of my hands my opponent could easily exploit this. I will start raising the bb 3x and up while also limping and folding an optimal range based on my opponent.

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Very good post. So you'll play super loose in position by minraising a lot so that it gives you an opportunity to play more hands in position? Against an opponent who calls a lot, can't the same argument as above be made? By making it 3x instead of minraising, you let them make bigger mistakes by letting them play big pots OOP?

[Kidling]

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Against an opponent who calls a lot, can't the same argument as above be made? By making it 3x instead of minraising, you let them make bigger mistakes by letting them play big pots OOP?

.

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Against certain loose passive opponents Im sure its positive ev to raise larger then 2x. Although I lose a little profit by still min raising these opponents I do it for a few reasons. First of all by keeping the pot smaller I decrease my fluctuation and put them in a position to make bigger mistakes post flop. Hu Sngs start out short anyway with only a 75bb effective stack and I prefer the extra room accorded from a min raise.


That being said the main reason why I stick to a standard pre flop min raise strategy is that i am usually multi tabling and I am most comfortable with it. I have stream lined my game to the point where every bet or raise is always the same except in rare cases. I min raise pre flop and bet or raise 3/4 the pot on all streets. This has really simplified my decisions while also giving away as little information as possible. This is probably a point for another discussion but it is taking my game to the next level. When the decision is between betting or checking as opposed to how much to bet or checking the decisions become so much clearer. By simplifing the game I am also becoming much more keen at picking up my opponents tendencies which I think more then makes up for any ev I am losing in making bigger or smaller bets. Instead of maximizing each bet or each match I am devolping a strategy that is as non exploitable as possible.

[dboy23]

kidling that is really interesting stuff. I've never heard of someone using that type of strategy here, but I've certainly played against that strategy.

I'm really curious what kind of roi at what levels you have been getting with it.