One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8

[TMTTR]

More questions than answers...

How much does the preflop and flop fold equity play here? If the BB is a reasonably tight player and can fold preflop near 50% of the time and will fold on the flop to a c-bet when he misses, I think a raise from late position with this kind of hand is good. Is open limping from late position ever "correct" in a LO8 game?

The hand develops on the turn in a way that they so often do in O8. OP has acquired a very good draw and the low hasn't come yet. But before OP can decide what to do, the BB leads out. So now is this a tricky move or does he have a real hand? In O8, I suspect its a "real hand" but that could be a monster draw (which we lead at this point) or a made hand (2 pair or set). Once I get to this position, I don't think I can fold. If you are behind, you have between 5 and 16 outs to scoop the pot...

That is my ruminating... I think I either raise or fold preflop depending on the blinds -- if I raise, I play it exactly the same as OP.

Tough spot --

[Buzz]

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How much does the preflop and flop fold equity play here?

[/ QUOTE ]TMTTR - I think I understand what you mean by preflop equity, but what is "flop fold equity"?

At any rate, after the flop it's a new ball game. Then after the turn it may be another new ball game.

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Is open limping from late position ever "correct" in a LO8 game?

[/ QUOTE ]Hmm. Why would it be incorrect?

Omaha-8 is a drawing game. If you figure you'll lose if you miss your draw and win if you make your draw, then you want more opponents calling your raise than the odds are against making your draw. Especially when you take into consideration the chance of having to split the pot with low, you often will not have enough opponents to have favorable odds to initiate fresh money into the pot, but considering the amount that will be in the pot at the showdown, you often will have favorable odds to call a bet.

Thus it is often correct to call a bet (because you consider the total amount that will be in the pot at the showdown when calculating your odds) while at the same time it will be incorrect to raise (because you compare the number of opponents contributing to your odds of making your draw).

I'm not sure if you grasp those principles - but that's the gist of it.

Is it ever correct to call in late position? ...Hello... <font color="red">Of course it is!</font> It's often correct when you're drawing - and you usually are (should be) drawing.

Seems to me we've been over this again and again. Am I missing something?

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OP has acquired a very good draw and the low hasn't come yet.

[/ QUOTE ]Well... he has 8 outs for the high nuts (the non diamond aces, nines and eights). But six of the outs (aces and eights) also enable low.
Hard to know about the diamond ace, nine, and eight. (Hero makes a straight but does Villain make a flush)? Also hard to know about all the remaining cards. Does that constitute a "very good draw"??

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But before OP can decide what to do, the BB leads out. So now is this a tricky move or does he have a real hand?


[/ QUOTE ]Exactly. Hero can't tell where the Hell he is in the hand!

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In O8, I suspect its a "real hand" but that could be a monster draw (which we lead at this point) or a made hand (2 pair or set). Once I get to this position, I don't think I can fold. If you are behind, you have between 5 and 16 outs to scoop the pot...

[/ QUOTE ]Rather vague, isn't it.

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Tough spot --

[/ QUOTE ]Yep.

With only one opponent, Hero doesn't have odds to draw, but the draw does add to Hero's chances. And that is how it happens when you don't have a very good fit with the flop but continue anyhow. Many or most possible turn cards increase your chances somewhat. In this case, after this flop, more than half of the unseen cards would give Hero some sort of increased chance to win - albeit most of them not as good as the jacks.

And Hero can't tell where he's at, can't tell if the pressure is real or a bullying tactic.

Buzz

[TMTTR]

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I think I understand what you mean by preflop equity, but what is "flop fold equity"?

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Both preflop and on the flop, I am talking about the equity added by the probability that your opponent(s) will fold. A raise preflop from late position might win you the blinds -- then you don't have to worry about whether you make your draw or get outdrawn -- you take the small pot right there. Similarly, on the flop -- regardless of whether you are ahead or behind, there is some chance that the blind will fold if you bet (i.e., continuing the steal attempt) -- there is equity in that (although it might be overwhelmed by the negative equity from your opponent raising or calling with a better hand). I might have my terminology screwed up but that is the concept I am talking about.

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Thus it is often correct to call a bet (because you consider the total amount that will be in the pot at the showdown when calculating your odds) while at the same time it will be incorrect to raise (because you compare the number of opponents contributing to your odds of making your draw).

I'm not sure if you grasp those principles - but that's the gist of it.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think I grasp the principle that you can call a bet in many circumstances where you couldn't raise. My question was limited to the circumstance: that it is (1) preflop, (2)you are in late position (the button or possibly CO), and (3) no one has entered the pot yet. The concept -- taken from the voluminous material on HE -- is that if you are going to play this hand at all, it is better to take control now and raise. You either have a hand that has value or you are representing that you have a hand that has value. Why let the blinds in for free (or cheap) with random hands? Even a reraise tells me more than a raise after my limp.

I may not be stating myself clearly as I am posting from work -- I will rethink later.

[Buzz]

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I am talking about the equity added by the probability that your opponent(s) will fold ..... I might have my terminology screwed up but that is the concept I am talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]TMTTR - I get it. Thanks.

I don't know the answer to your question, but I understand what you mean. (I think I do).

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I think I grasp the principle that you can call a bet in many circumstances where you couldn't raise.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes!

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..... The concept -- taken from the voluminous material on HE -- is that if you are going to play this hand at all, it is better to take control now and raise.

[/ QUOTE ]Although there's still something to that in Omaha-8, the principle isn't as applicable as it is in Texas hold 'em. The difference is there are too many ways an opponent can have a favorable fit with the flop in Omaha-8 compared to Texas hold 'em.

I actually have done all right playing Texas hold 'em. I mean, I don't think of myself as an inept Texas hold 'em player - a loser. I simply enjoy playing Omaha-8 more than Texas hold 'em. I can't explain exactly why. It's just more fun - somehow less stressful. At any rate, not that it matters but rightly or wrongly, I play Texas hold 'em quite differently from the way I play Omaha-8. I think general poker principles apply to both games, but the emphasis is different (if that makes any sense).

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You either have a hand that has value or you are representing that you have a hand that has value.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. That's the same in any poker game. However, there is a difference, going from one game to another, in the probability your hand or an opponent's hand has value.

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Why let the blinds in for free (or cheap) with random hands?

[/ QUOTE ]Because then they may pay you off when you make a winning hand. And when you don't make a winning hand, you can get out more cheaply.

It's a matter of how well your hand fits with the flop on the river - not how good your starting hand is. (Of course better starting hands do have a better chance of ending up as winners on the river).

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Even a reraise tells me more than a raise after my limp.

[/ QUOTE ]Maybe. As I see it the players who tend to raise before the flop do it (raise) often enough so that it's very difficult to put them on cards. Not everybody, of course - some give away free information with their raises.

One thing about raising with that KKT9s- piece of crap hand is unless you usually or always raise with high-cards-only hands, you don't give away much information. But that's like raising with 92o in Texas hold 'em. You don't give away information, but unless you intimidate your opponents, or set them up to call your later raise with a solid hand, you're wasting a bet.

There is something to setting up your opponents. You don't play hands in isolation. What you do on one hand affects the way your play is perceived on another. But that's not what we're talking about here.

Enough.

Buzz