How to Balance WW games.

[LuckayLuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I think there might be other problems...

In a 13 player 9/1/3 game, I get

Wolves = 12 points
Villagers = 6 (seer)+ 8 (other villagers) = 14 points...

Wolves seem under valued.

[/ QUOTE ]

you can put the seer as 5 points in a game this small

so 12 points vs 13 points is quite balanced

[LuckayLuck]

9-13 player games:

Seer = 5 Points
Angel (cannot protect himself/50% protect on seer, or cannot protect same person twice in a row) = 4 Points

15-19 Player Games:

Seer = 6 Points
Angel (cannot protect himself/50% protect on seer, or cannot protect same person twice in a row) = 5 Points

21-27 Player Games:

Seers = 6.5 Points each
Angel = 6 Points

29+ Player Games

Seers = 7 Points Each
Angel = 7 Points

imo

[Mark_K]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think there might be other problems...

In a 13 player 9/1/3 game, I get

Wolves = 12 points
Villagers = 6 (seer)+ 8 (other villagers) = 14 points...

Wolves seem under valued.

[/ QUOTE ]

you can put the seer as 5 points in a game this small

so 12 points vs 13 points is quite balanced

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually my math was bad, it's seer+9 vill (not 8) but
your point is still valid. As the numbers get smaller, the point "resolution" gets poorer...

[durron597]

you are underestimating mat sklansky / durron597 / iron_yuppie synergy, especially with an evil seer, plus you are way undervaluing the convertible

that game goes so different if they don't waste possession and pinktutubear doesn't die

[clowntable]

Let's improve/perfect the point system. This is a pretty good starting point imo.
I think it would be interesting to run some long games with pro village power roles but only plain wolves. Ususally for some reason (probably because it's more fun [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ) the mods also create power wolves.
Or maybe if I have some spare time I'll write a simulation of 13 player turbos.
Actually, I wonder how turbos with only plain villagers and plain wolves would play. Would probably suck because the wolves have no reason to seer hunt and thus can hide perfectly.

[soah]

The point system won't ever be perfect because the value of various roles differs due to the presence of other roles and the size of the game. For instance, the more power villagers there are, the less useful the seers become because they will often peek a power villager who would be able to confirm himself via roleclaiming, so the peek is sort of a waste. Also, the value of a roleblocker depends on what sort of night actions are in the game.

[Neil S]

[ QUOTE ]
you are underestimating mat sklansky / durron597 / iron_yuppie synergy, especially with an evil seer, plus you are way undervaluing the convertible

that game goes so different if they don't waste possession and pinktutubear doesn't die

[/ QUOTE ]I maintain the possession was not WASTED. This whole idea of saving it looks stupid later if I die. The possession also looks much better if I don't flub the counterclaim.

[wdcbooks]

A few points on balancing.

I can remember several games that I thought were unwinnable by the wolf side. I can think of very few that grossly favored the wolves.

I don't like the Angel much at all. Having an angel allows people to role claim with impunity while the wolves flounder around trying to kill off the angel so they can get to the other roles. I just don't think the angel takes much skill to play or adds much to the game.

Finally, each game designer should ask themselves what would happen to their game if everyone just roleclaimed. Too often the answer is that the village would win in a walk. I think people are misled by Mish Mash games which are made balanced by an excess of insanity. If you tone down Mish Mash, but maintain the huge number of roles you get a game where everyone can just claim before dying.

[Neil S]

Mass claiming is a disaster, yes. That's why my Futurama game will have everyone with a named character, but it will be like the Star Trek games in that you don't know what names are in and which aren't, or which are good and which are evil.

[clowntable]

[ QUOTE ]
The point system won't ever be perfect because the value of various roles differs due to the presence of other roles and the size of the game. For instance, the more power villagers there are, the less useful the seers become because they will often peek a power villager who would be able to confirm himself via roleclaiming, so the peek is sort of a waste. Also, the value of a roleblocker depends on what sort of night actions are in the game.

[/ QUOTE ]
Still, a good heuristic is batter than nothing [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]