Coaching WARNING

[pokersanjuan]

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I had the roll for 200nl and was beating it at 1.7ptbb/100. I took snowbanks coaching and in 3 weeks lost everything. So I was expecting to improve and move up. He advertised a 10ptbb/100 winrate!

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Over how many hands? What was your roll in $?

You are implying that your losses were snowbank's fault. If you're making this kind of implication, you had better be prepared to back it up with documented facts.

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pokersanjuan, this is exactly what I told you in your other thread.

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I am NOT implying my losses are HIS fault. I think I should recieve a refund for unused coaching hours. The first I ever heard of no refund was THIS CONVERSATION.

I simply told him I am not playing poker anymore and will not be using his services. Not that they were that great to begin with.

He was never available, and except for our first 30 min together the sessions constituted NOTHING.

[FishSticks]

For the folks that are flatly saying "you paid X for Y so you are entitled to nothing" -

1) Well what should he do at this point? You think he's actually going to get quality coaching for the 3 hours he has left after all this? He's got $450 dangling in the wind and no viable recourse.

2) Do you realize in the busines world that if you are offering a prepaid service and intend on not refunding any unused services, you need to be extremely specific in regard to that in your contracts - and even then it's *very* difficult to uphold if it comes to litigation?

[orange]

even michael jordan had a coach.

[Ralph Wiggum]

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I don't think snowbank did anything wrong and if he keeps the money he still did nothing wrong. But if it comes time for me to pick a coach I can't say I'll be in line to use him, given the way he handled the situation here.

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Agreed.

psj, sounds like you didn't hire the best coach out there. I'd like to stick up for a 2+2 regular like Snowbank, but he's handled this situation poorly. I think what he's done from his end of the bargain outweighs the naivety of psj.

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This is your fault for blindly giving someone, whose style you do not know, 1/4 of your roll for coaching sessions. Maybe you should've looked into how he played/coached before you went so far as to give him 5 sessions at once.

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That's ridiculous. A lot of coaches ask for multiple sessions payment up front. Just b/c psj may not have been wise enough to hire a better coach doesn't mean he deserves to get shortchanged in the quality of coaching received. He did pay $150/hr, and he deserves quality coaching & service from for that.

[wildzer0]

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For the folks that are flatly saying "you paid X for Y so you are entitled to nothing" -

1) Well what should he do at this point? You think he's actually going to get quality coaching for the 3 hours he has left after all this? He's got $450 dangling in the wind and no viable recourse.


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Well I think that's the big thing now - I doubt he will get quality coaching at this point (I know nothing about snowbank, maybe he will, just a guess) and in that case, I think he should get a refund.

[matrix]

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I had the roll for 200nl and was beating it at 1.7ptbb/100. I took snowbanks coaching and in 3 weeks lost everything. So I was expecting to improve and move up. He advertised a 10ptbb/100 winrate!

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bankroll management skills are goot.

I want to play 200NL - sadly my bankroll dictates that I can only play 25NL right now - so thats where I play.

Lets assume that "having the roll to play at 200NL" means you started with $6k.

Once you lost $3k of that did it not possibly seem like a good idea to drop to $100NL where you'd once again have a comfortable 30buys to play with?

and then when you lost half of that did it not occur that now perhaps $50NL was the place to play poker... (?)

You can't blame snowbank for YOU losing your roll.

Your results in poker are all entirely your own fault. Passing the buck here won't wash.

If it was me being the coach I'd have given you a refund personally - tho I would have been [censored] off about it - I would want to have "happy customers" more than anything else as I understand what positive and negative feedback can do to ones reputation, and that my reputation would be worth a crapload more to me than $450 directly and possibly other lost opportunities indirectly - but thats just me personally.

When you agree to pay someone money for a product or service you form a legally binding contract. This contract was upheld by both parties - you don't have a leg to stand on.

Buyer beware. When you negotiate a deal you must always always always make dam sure you have read the fine print and understand exactly what you are getting yourself into if x happens or if y happens - that way this kind of situation never happens.

If Snowbank had told you in advance there were no refunds - would you have taken the lessons? If he did turn away business as a result of taking you then you have cost HIM money. He is well within his rights to keep your cash if he chooses to.

Welcome to the real world. You're lucky that you are learning a valuable life lesson and it's only cost you $450 while you are still young. It takes some people a lot longer to learn this - and costs some people a lot lot more.

If I were you I'd give up on this money now that I've said my piece as clearly further whining about it isn;t going to help me.

I'd work out a way to get a job and a small income so I could pay off my loans and meet my expenses - and get together a small bankroll for $25NL - and I'd grind and I'd grind and I'd grind - and once I'd got back to 200NL I'd make dam sure that bankroll management skills were very high on my list of priorities.

[Grunch]

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I am NOT implying my losses are HIS fault. I think I should recieve a refund for unused coaching hours. The first I ever heard of no refund was THIS CONVERSATION.


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Then you have said it yourself. There was no agreed upon stipulation with respect to refunds on unused sessions, and therefore no such stipulation exists. If you conclude that the lack of stipulation means that you get a refund, then this is an example of you confusing what you are entitled to with what's in your best interests.

This is the essence of "buyer beware." You made a mistake by not fully understanding what it was you were buying. Now your best hope is to convince snowbank that it is also in his best interests to refund your money.

This may suprise you, but I'm actually on your side. IMO Snowbank would be foolish to not refund your unused sessions at the bare minimum. Not because he owes you anything, but because it's bad buisness not to.

[FishSticks]

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When you agree to pay someone money for a product or service you form a legally binding contract. This contract was upheld by both parties - you don't have a leg to stand on.

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You're really shooting from the hip with little knowledge of the law. You saw this on some court TV show or heard it from someone. The contract was not upheld by both parties, as services have not been fully rendered. He did not get the full 5 hours, and then just say it wasn't good enough and he wants a refund. Any "contract" they had was informal, probably verbal but otherwise on an unverifiable medium like email - and definitely a far cry from a signed hard copy.

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Welcome to the real world. You're lucky that you are learning a valuable life lesson and it's only cost you $450 while you are still young. It takes some people a lot longer to learn this - and costs some people a lot lot more.

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True that, but it doesn't make the situation right or okay. It's not like there is nothing that can be done.

[Freelancer]

1) When I got coaching from snowbank I also payed him upfront, never had any problems.
2) He was VERY clear that I was paying for 4 coaching lessons before hand and he wasn't doing any less.
3) Judging from your OP you went down in flames because of your OWN mistakes, you can't blame snowbank for this.
4) He never indicated that you will get a refund if you don't want to complete the lessons, and you clearly didn't ask for this either.
5) I'm sure that snowbank wouldn't mind to do the remaining lessons, even though you don't have money online they are still worthwhile your time.
6) I am backing up snowbank 100%, I find it very disturbing that you are trying to destroy his good name. He's very clear in the chat above, get the lessons or leave it by this. Snowbank is completely in his right here.

[Scofield]

Matrix just because you're a mod shouldn't allow you to post long, boring responses, especially since now I cannot ignore you.