|
|
#31
03-02-2007, 08:15 PM
|
|||
|
|||
Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
[ QUOTE ]
this is a really bad hand to post [/ QUOTE ] sometimes you don't have a read on someone and you have to make the best possible decision vs the spectrum of all players. what's wrong with asking how to play that? 
|
|
#33
03-02-2007, 08:34 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
[ QUOTE ]
shove only gets called by what beats u, and very few hands that yer behind fold [/ QUOTE ] lol this doesn't matter a whole lot when you've made the pot huge btw I beat him in there w/ a shove
|
|
#34
03-02-2007, 08:57 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
[ QUOTE ]
this is a really bad hand to post [/ QUOTE ] ok i feel compelled to post again since this is something i see all the time and i think it's bs. i hate to use an already overused expression but poker is "a game of incomplete information." you don't always have the luxury of knowing your opponent's game inside and out. sometimes you've played lots of hands with someone but not in that particular situation. sometimes you've never played with something but have 10k hands datamined and have to make the most off those stats. sometimes you see a guy you've never seen before but his screenname is "donkaments_busto_shipitcrucial" so you know he's probably some random 2p2er. but no matter what, you have to make the most of what you know it's no different from having to make an educated guess as to what your opponent has. it's making a range. sometimes he has the nuts and sometimes he's bluffing. you have to figure out the %'s. it's no different when you're not sure if your 21/17 opponent is a spewy retard or a set miner postflop. you have to play the range of opponents just like you have to make a range of hands. so let's say i deposit to stars tomorrow and find myself in the same situation vs the same player. i have to go based on what i know of yellowsub. i know he's a capable winning player. i know that he has an aggressive, tricky reputation. that's all i got. i can't magically KNOW how he plays in these situations. there's no "need a better raed" button on stars. if i went and posted this hand based on my history with him (ie none), would you tell me the same thing? how would that be a reasonable response. i can't make a decision based on something i don't know. i have to go based on what i do. if i failed to give you all available information, then that's my fault and you'd have every right to tell me that you can't help me out. but OP told us what he knows. it's not his fault that he doesn't know much. you can't sit with someone for the first time and magically have thousands of hands of experience.
|
|
#35
03-02-2007, 09:02 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
[ QUOTE ]
ok i feel compelled to post again since this is something i see all the time and i think it's bs [/ QUOTE ] I 100% agree with that. I hate moronish "bad hand to post", "not possible to answer without more info" bs answers. I am glad Josh took time to express his opinion on that.
|
|
#36
03-03-2007, 02:24 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] this is a really bad hand to post [/ QUOTE ] ok i feel compelled to post again since this is something i see all the time and i think it's bs. i hate to use an already overused expression but poker is "a game of incomplete information." you don't always have the luxury of knowing your opponent's game inside and out. sometimes you've played lots of hands with someone but not in that particular situation. sometimes you've never played with something but have 10k hands datamined and have to make the most off those stats. sometimes you see a guy you've never seen before but his screenname is "donkaments_busto_shipitcrucial" so you know he's probably some random 2p2er. but no matter what, you have to make the most of what you know it's no different from having to make an educated guess as to what your opponent has. it's making a range. sometimes he has the nuts and sometimes he's bluffing. you have to figure out the %'s. it's no different when you're not sure if your 21/17 opponent is a spewy retard or a set miner postflop. you have to play the range of opponents just like you have to make a range of hands. so let's say i deposit to stars tomorrow and find myself in the same situation vs the same player. i have to go based on what i know of yellowsub. i know he's a capable winning player. i know that he has an aggressive, tricky reputation. that's all i got. i can't magically KNOW how he plays in these situations. there's no "need a better raed" button on stars. if i went and posted this hand based on my history with him (ie none), would you tell me the same thing? how would that be a reasonable response. i can't make a decision based on something i don't know. i have to go based on what i do. if i failed to give you all available information, then that's my fault and you'd have every right to tell me that you can't help me out. but OP told us what he knows. it's not his fault that he doesn't know much. you can't sit with someone for the first time and magically have thousands of hands of experience. [/ QUOTE ] You argue that there should be some "default line" that he can fall back on when he is readless. Problem is that there is no good default line. Option 1: fold-- too exploitable Yellowsub only has to have Legally blind fold 42% of the time to make it instantly profitable. Legally blind is obviously reraising alot if he folded 2nd pair everytime Yellow sub would make an instaprofit. Option 2: Call/fold turn. Odds aren't good enough to call to spike an 8 or backdoorflush. Hands that Yellowsub might be bluffing with are either better than ours or have significant outs. We can checkdown and still lose. Also leave some% chance that we get bluffed out. Option 3: Call/Call turn highly exploitable might as well push to minimize the damage of Suckouts. Option 4: Push only profitable if yellowsub has AA KK AK 22 88 less than 50% of the time. Legally Blind can't assign Sub to a hand range, so throw that out the window. Every option needs a read to proceed. In that sense it is terrible hand to post.
|
|
#37
03-03-2007, 02:25 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
I've always hated "take a marginal hand in a vacuum and analyze it." Only a 12 tabling hudbot has no reads. Reads are poker. You take what pertinent knowledge you have about a player and you apply it a new and different situations. That's why Player A can read the same books and posts, use the same preflop strategy as Player B and be better than player B.
|
|
#39
03-03-2007, 04:34 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
[ QUOTE ]
Option 1: fold-- too exploitable Yellowsub only has to have Legally blind fold 42% of the time to make it instantly profitable. Legally blind is obviously reraising alot if he folded 2nd pair everytime Yellow sub would make an instaprofit. [/ QUOTE ] You confuse "exploitable" with "there is a strategy that is good against our line" which are two very diffrent things. Also "he could make insta-profit" is not good enough argument against given line in multistreet poker games both theoretically and practically. [ QUOTE ] Every option needs a read to proceed. In that sense it is terrible hand to post. [/ QUOTE ] Its the reason its great hand to post. Lets assume you have some reads. Great ! Are they enough to make clear-cut decision ? If yes its bad hand to post. If not we are in very similair situation to "no reads" just a little changed in one direction or another. Still your 1-4 points would apply.
|
|
#40
03-03-2007, 03:21 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: yellowsub throws a sick min-raise my way
[ QUOTE ]
Option 2: Call/fold turn. Odds aren't good enough to call to spike an 8 or backdoorflush. Hands that Yellowsub might be bluffing with are either better than ours or have significant outs. We can checkdown and still lose. Also leave some% chance that we get bluffed out. [/ QUOTE ] if you're calling because you think you have the best hand, then not having sufficient pot odds is not an argument. and the chances that he bluffs given the action and size of the pot (all in is less than half pot) are pretty small. even without a read that's a pretty safe assumption. the only real problem is you're going to get sucked out on 25% of the time on average the reason folding feels so exploitable is because he shouldn't be bet-folding. once you ignore that he once had the option of checking, i don't think folding sounds so bad but how is this all so read-based? most players aren't capable of shoving it on the turn as a bluff. if i'm OP and i have AK, i'm just calling the flop to see if he wants to bluff the turn. sub has to fear that. so he won't bluff hardly ever. so basically he's just gambling that sub is bluffing right now and won't follow through. it's only 120 to 534 that that's the case. even if we ignore our suckout equity and say that he sucks out 25% of the time, it works out that if he's bluffing 25% of the time for it to be a good call. so how good a read do you really need to answer that one simple question of whether he's bluffing 25% of the time here? to answer this question you can just put yourself in sub's situation since we can't think back to whether he's done this before and what he's had. it's 3-handed. you're sub and called your opponent's presumably wide 3-bet. he bets a K high dry flop. his range is probably pretty polarized between hands that can't take any heat and ones that want to get it in, because lots of the QQ and A8 type hands will check, while the hopeless T9dd hands will definitely fire. the pot is 300. it costs 120 to minraise to hopefully just push him off the hands that don't want to play anymore. does that sound like a good plan to you? it sounds like a good one to me. so is it safe to assume that even without ANY specific read of sub, that he MIGHT be capable of thinking like this? i'd say so. how many unpaired hands or pairs under 77 can he have preflop? probably a fair amount. so we know he can be bluffing, and we know he needs to be bluffing 25%. we know there aren't that many big hands he can have but there are lots of unpaired cards like JTs and AQ, and he could be stabbing with like 66. so it's probably a reasonable assumption, even without a read, that he's bluffing enough, even if, in reality, yellowsub86 never bluffs here. you're playing against the range of players that fit his description i just spewed a bunch of words but i hope it at least makes some sense
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
